Listener Crossword 4079

[starwalker]

This week's offering is Sine Qua Non by Shackleton.
No one should panic that I have finished it already - I've only just read the preamble and feel the need for a lie down in a darkened room.
No doubt it will all make sense in the end. I have always found Shackleton to be sometimes tough, but always fair. Let's hope that this does not prove me wrong.

[tringyokel]

Thanks Zabadak. That is helpful. Yes, I'm pretty sure I have the instruction from the across clues so I'll concentrate on the ones I haven't solved yet. The down clues can wait a little longer.

[Philoctetes]

Yes, this was fun from preamble to denouement, particularly as I am passionate about the subject. Struggled for ages on how to transform the clues to the quotation (which i already had - PDMs in the wrong order again) until I asked daughter, who took all of a minute to spot it. And I did laugh out loud at the final twist. Then, of course, I realised it was another to celebrate a (doubly) significant date. Thanks, Shackleton - it will be hard to better this this year

[AndrewG-S]

Hadn't spotted both dates, this just gets better

[AndrewG-S]

Bit of a long shot but is there any chance the title is a link to an early work by Boethius - it kind of feels like it has a relevance to the puzzle and I think he was the first user of the phrase

[Cruncher]

Great puzzle. Lot of work, but all the better for that. Can't make sense of 28dn, and not sure about the significance of the dates but just brilliant. When I googled this puzzle tonight I discovered a new site, I think, called crosswordsolver where contributors basically spell out answers. After all the threads about restraint on this site over the years, this new site is just crass.
Congratulations Midazolam. With all the forthcoming sleepless nights you'll have time to solve these Listeners at double speed!

[nigel2]

Have come to this late, enjoyed it so far having solved all clues and found the correct letters from misprints. Struggling now to find the "two versions" of the question. Do I have to apply the instruction from correct letters in across clues to entries in the grid or deduce the question from words that already appear in the completed grid? Hoping for a PDM but so far hitting a brick wall. Can see certain entries can be changed to others making other words but that has not yielded a PDM either. Hope to gain enlightenment over Easter.

[daagg]

nigel2, you should have two separate parts to your instructions. The shorter one is a definition which gives a direct hint, allowing you to interpret the longer one in a literal way. The preamble says you need to apply these instructions to the remaining clues.

[midazolam]

I have just read that other site cruncher, I wonder how long it will take listenerite etc to impose their views there. At least there has been little activity from them here in recent times. I do agree that their thread is blatant, but I don't think they realise how protected the listener is with the diehards.

[Clamzy]

Your prediction is correct Midazolam the expected rebuke is there this morning although it doesn't read aggressively enough for Listenerite himself.
Having perused the thread it does appear that the site lacks the expertise of our little community here.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, indeed, Clamzy. They seem to have landed there by chance and to have no notion of the Listener protocol and also, very little hope of solving a Listener crossword. I thought 'spoiler's intervention was restrained but appropriate for the situation. I truly doubt, though, that our AB community makes the suggested difference in the statistics. Most of us, here, only look when we have solved and come to improve our skills - not to skew statistics. I am sometimes way out of my depth and know it - and know when to abandon. I suspect we are not responsible for the increase in 'all-corrects' so much as all the available aids, the Internet etc.

[Clamzy]

I agree Ruthrobin and would suggest that the 2009 statistics which show a drop in the number of all-corrects, support your position.

[catstail]

Right, have taken a deep breath and am sticking my head over the parapet. To begin with, I do not approve of cheating. Some people take the Listener very seriously, and those who are trying to complete a correct year are understandably going to object to any hint of cheating.

Reading the comments on the new site, it seems that those concerned are blown away by the Listener and want to be able to solve it. It is sites like Answerbank - and possibly the new site - which will encourage more people to attempt the Listener (such as yours truly). Being guided along the way is the best way to learn. Not so that people such as myself can cheat and send in the crossword, but so that we too can enjoy more of what the Listener has to offer. After all, it is a special type of crossword.

Not everyone learns cryptics from their parents, friends or colleagues. The internet does enable more people, such as myself, to be inducted into this special world. Is it that much worse than over the phone or coffee? No, the new site is not expert, and no-one will complete a Listener from it, but that should not stop encouragement of those who genuinely want to learn more about the Listener.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.
Will put my head below the parapet again!
PS Who is Listenerite?

[tringyokel]

Finally got there. It's taken me all afternoon to piece the final bits together. I confess some of the gentle hints here helped with sorting out the preamble, or I might still be puzzling. I dread to think how many hours I've spent on this one but it is worth it when the pieces of the puzzle become clear.

[Ruthrobin]

Catstail, I am a relative newcomer, too, but have seen one 'Listenerite' intervention. It is the very angry response of a dedicated Listener solver who loathes the fact that prompting is given and received here (on the basis that even the experts will come here if in real desperation and afraid of losing an 'all correct' record). There was a suggestion or attempt to close this site, I believe, or delete all references to the Listener and we were clearly warned to give no direct responses - of the type we are just seeing on the new site.

[catstail]

Thanks RuthRobin
Gosh, feelings run higher than I thought. However hard I try I am not going to be able to join the elite group - and my admiration goes out to them at their skill in solving.
(As an aside, do not see how they could force a site to shut down on those grounds.)
Hmmm.

[Clamzy]

I think Robinruth meant close the Listener threads not the whole answerbank site.

[silversolver]

Have just got round to this one after being away skiing this week. Finally got there after many hours of head scratching once I had filled the grid but agree that this was a superb puzzle. On to 4080 tomorrow!

[easterfool]

Well this has me well and truly stumped. I have filled the grid but am not sure of all the corrected letters. Fine in the across clues - though how that helps is beyond me. I seem to have 2 separate short groups in the down clues - no words or anything apparent from them. Does anyone feel inclined to give me a bit of a push? Does KMPT mean anything to anyone?

[Clamzy]

The K should be a U.
When you have the 2 short groups completed (4,5) it may look nonsensical but google will reveal all.

[IntoTheBlue]

Sheer brilliance!
Enough said...

IntoTheBlue