Listener 4090 Refrain by Dysart

[Ruthrobin]

An evocative theme from our childhood this week and some very ingenious clues. Tougher than last week, we thought.

[Mr Crossy]

Zabadak, re your thoughts on the optionality, one of the clashes can be resolved only if you know the alternative title, because either choice of letter gives real words in both directions. If you've got the grid right, you must know what the discarded letters are, and they make only one sensible arrangement, so I suppose you don't need to fill it in to demonstrate full understanding. But I stil can't make up my mind, whether to or not!

Loved the transmutation btw :)

[AndrewG-S]

Has there been a Listener before with two potentially correct answers - ie with or without the alternative title? Seems odd to me, so I am leaning towards the refrain at the moment.

[silversolver]

Finally got there after a late start. I thoroughly enjoyed this one - some tricky clues which involved a lot of head-scratching (especially the clashes), a familiar and enjoyable theme and an amusing PDM. The trail helped with some some answers. Thanks, Dysart

[JackDeCrow]

Zabadak - can't see any reason why you wouldn't consider Eastern and quarter separately given the letters involved - makes the quarter a bit less obscure!

[Eril]

Mr Crossy - however, to define an unambiguous trail the letter choice is forced, so it isn't actually necessary to find the word.

[Mr Crossy]

Eril - good point, I hadn't noticed that. So what's your vote - write or refrain? Or doesn't it matter?

[x_word_fan]

Since the title of the Listener invariably has some significance and that one meaning of "refrain" doesn't, to my mind, describe the subject of the puzzle I am drawn to the conclusion that it must be the other meaning that is significant. Hence I have refrained from writing in the space.

[Archie1962]

My initial guess for why the title is optional is that it is obscure and would therefore be unfair to the remaining few without internet access. But having completed the crossword, how could you not see it? So it's a mystery. I think if you had to decide whether it was correct to enter the alternative title, it would be unfair not to say this in the preamble. So I'm going to put it in.

I'm always a bit late finishing to make any really original point on these threads, but I have to say I did find this an entertaining puzzle. And is there any relevance to the meander? It looks a bit like it may be some sort of shape, maybe a head, or an <last six extra letters>

[Ruthrobin]

To my mind it would be most unfair for an instruction to be in the crossword title. Equally, I can't imagine that anything in the title could contradict that word 'optionally' which has an unambiguous meaning. There would be lots of 'all corrects' falling by the wayside, I imagine (if such a thing as 'lots of all corrects' can exist) should they be penalised either for writing below the grid or not doing so. Equally, I can't imagine how anyone would confirm the alternative title without access to the Internet, even if they found all those difficult clashes and sorted out the anagram - though there do seem to be very clever and well-informed people out there. I would take 'optionally' as precisely that and not worry overmuch.

[qwerty99]

Agreed, Ruthrobin. I believe it is a requirement of Listener setters that their puzzles should be solvable without recourse to the internet. I wouldn't mind betting that the "optional" element was inserted at the editing stage.

Surely the puzzle title just refers to the refrain of the song, at the end of which the transmutation occurs.

[JackDeCrow]

Hard to imagine finishing many Listeners without recourse to the internet! Given there are frequent entries that don't appear in Chambers, is there an "official" list of other reference books that any answer should appear in somwhere?

[cluelessJoe]

Doh! Having had to leave this untouched for a few days, I returned and spent a while this afternoon wondering if it was going to be an even later finish, overlapping #4091. Just in time I spotted the clever mutation - very nice. Undoubtedly the refrain helped with odd clues, though a couple of the clashes did not emerge too readily thanks to some tidily nasty clueing. Testing, thanks Dysart

[BlackHugh]

Well - I have just sent it in - After 2 days looking at 33A without undertanding it I decided it could all be done without that as I had all the theme stuff (hopefully). Anyway we can now print off 4091 (which appears to be a little easier at first glance)!

[nigel2]

Everything solved, good fun but can't find the clash with the "i" from the less familiar source disappearing. Any hints on its whereabouts?

[silversolver]

nigel2 - look in the south-west corner

[poorsolver]

http://www.listenercr...HTML/Reference06.html

The notes for setters of Listener Crosswords. Solvers may find it helpful to read what is the gospel about internet access availability or not.

[Eril]

Qwerty (and RR) - you have persuaded me. Decided to put the alternate title in, but can't then see what 'Refrain' means... Anyway thanks for the link poorsolver - most interested in the 'Statistics' bit. For those who bemoan the quarterly number puzzle, read the stats!