Listener 4097: Half-Thyme by Dipper

[midazolam]

In a way typical of what we expect from Dipper, although harder than recent efforts. Initially a quick start developed into a much slower finish. I enjoyed tracking down the herbs but I thought the placing of the misprints was slightly unfair. At least it left something else to tackle near the end (unlike previous times).

[teuchter2]

Yes, quite an interesting puzzle with some degree of difficulty. I thought 18a was a stinker and absolutely essential as I was not familiar with the phrase. At least it is done and dusted as I have a busy week ahead!

[AndrewG-S]

Just finished, sped up materially once I got the CD rom out! Last clue was 23a which for me was very obscure. Enjoyable puzzle - thanks Dipper

[Clamzy]

I'm another of those who had the puzzle in an envelope and ready to go on Saturday, but with no idea about the answer to 18 across. Bobby Collins hint rang loud bells for which many thanks. Yet another 2010 puzzle where a correct solution can be found without completing all the hurdles, but a big improvement on Dippers earlier ones I thought.

[Clamzy]

What no apostrophes? :-)

[JackDeCrow]

Thanks x_word_fan and s-matrix. Can sleep better now. Can't believe that Barry clue - is that even allowed ?!

[daagg]

JdC, it's in Chambers.

[Staurologist]

Everything is allowed, JackdeCrow, if the checker allows it. Clue 14 invokes popular culture, even though not everyone will understand it. [As an analogy, if I referred to Paul Gascoigne, say, in a clue to "La Gazza Ladra", I suspect that most people would get it.] The solving difficulties to which those who contribute to these threads constantly refer strengthen my view that crossword editors and checkers should not be expert solvers. The very best editors and checkers that I have worked with, Jim Evans (whom older Listerner setters will remember) par excellence, are/were average solvers. The checker who is an expert solver will not necessarily appreciate that average solvers will have difficulties with clues that he sees straight away and will not ask the setter to modify them. A plea, therefore, to checkers, to keep the average solver in mind.

[Philoctetes]

Very pleasant, with enough complexity to be satisfying.
My understanding of what Staurologist wants - and I agree - is that while clues can (and should) be complex, and the answers not necessarily within the vocabulary of the man on the Clapham Omnibus, clues should not themselves use or refer to terms that are too obscure. I could construct simple clues using, for instance, archery terms that could defeat the highest grade of solver, but I would consider this unfair. The term in 14a is, IMHO, widely enough used to be fair. The difficulty lies, of course, in where the boundary of general experience lies.

[AndrewG-S]

I thought 14a was OK, still struggling with the wordplay on 23a even though I have the answer. My personal preference is for clues which are not overly tough combined with a thematic which takes quite a bit of work, so for me the two of the year so far were last week's Some Assembly Required and the awesome Shakleton Sine Qua Non (dit dit dit dah), which I still have pinned to my wall.

[u10]

I'm finding the wordplay to 22Dn difficult to follow. I'm sure that I've got the right answer as confirmed by Chambers. I can see three letters to be removed to make a thematic word, but to make the clue work I seem to have before = AN. I thought before = A or ante. Can anyone explain what's going on here?
Also the wordplay to 24Dn is difficult. Again I'm sure that I have the answer but the use of "cubes" is confusing me.
I enjoyed this puzzle but have found the clues quite difficult to fathom. Resources that are proving invaluable when solving are the Chambers Dictionary and Thesaurus apps for the iphone. I would also recommend the "Advanced Crossword Solver" app.

[Clamzy]

Chambers 2008 page 48 an = before.

[AndrewG-S]

Thanks S-matrix, based on that looks like I may have the wrong word - I'll need to take another look

[Staurologist]

Thank you, Philoctetes. No matter how difficult a clue may be, the reason for the answer, once discovered, should be clear; one should not have to agonize over the interpretation (because, for example, of ambiguities). A clue that can be solved but not understood in full is the worst type of clue. Having to search for thematic elements is more acceptable, since there is more to complexity in a Listener puzzle than just the clues. However, in the end everything should be readily understandable, whether difficult to find or not. Is that not what people mean when they refer to "penny-dropping moments"?

I remind S-matrix that the noun "elite" has different meanings. If by "elite", used attributively, he means "[exemplifying] the pick or best of anything", I agree wholeheartedly. If, however, he means "[serving] a chosen or select group", I disagree. The Listener puzzles should be the very best of their kind, but they should not be so difficult or convoluted that they exclude more than a small number of solvers or frustrate those who aspire to solve them. Contrary to what he says, the average number of entries for a Listener puzzle is not high--exactly 500 in 2009, compared with about 0.6 million subscriptions and 1.8 million readers of The Times.

[AndrewG-S]

You may all be familiar with this but the notes to setters of the Listener are interesting in this regard and state that: "The essence of a Listener crossword is elegance and subtlety of theme and clueing, not difficulty per se. Setters shouldn’t add gratuitous obstacles simply to make a puzzle less solvable."

[cluelessJoe]

S-matrix, from my perspective, I don't think that the puzzles have necessarily become easier - it's our solving aids (and/or accessibility thereof) which have improved. That coupled with the fact that familiarity breeds familiarity, so we are increasingly learning what to expect from a puzzle.
That said, the weekly challenge is still something eagerly anticipated - particularly if it just happens to throw up something remotely original / extra-challenging.

[trux]

despite all of your hints, I've reached that very frustrating stage of having just one light left to fill .... 23A ... not encouraged by the person who described it as "obscure" ... it must also match up with 4D and I can only think of / find one herb that would do so, but that doesn't seem possible to fit with any 11-letter word patterns at 23A ... be gentle on a neophyte and guide me more, pleeeze !

[trux]

have reached that most frustrating of stages where you have one non-essential light to fill in ... 23A ... must contain half a herb (to match up with 4D, methinks - which suggests only one possibility, but maybe here I'm wrong) ... but then that makes the full 11-letter word pattern seemingly impossible ... was not encouraged by subscriber who called it "obscure" ... fiat lux for a neophyte !