Listener Crossword 4117 Great Expectations by Samuel

[Zabadak]

Not finished yet, but I've got grid B, so I know two things already. There's an awful lot of pretty close to cold solving in Grid A, and I've got to get a bigger print out to have any kind of chance with the instruction. Best of luck, everyone.

[AHearer]

I can see this leading to the same sort of discussion about exactly what should be submitted as did Xanthippe's Girl.

[AHearer]

Sorry, Clamzy, I submitted without refreshing. I didn't intentionally ignore your comment.

[AndrewG-S]

I don't see how highlighting numbers can be a thematic message?? But then my penny drop solution was wrong on this count so what do I know.

[Scorpius]

Contendo, my message was a bit vague to avoid giving anything away to people who hadn't completed the puzzle. I had no problem understanding "without detachment". The problem that I see is this: If the items mentioned in the hidden message are left closed parts of the message are obscured. If they are wide open some other parts of the message are obscured. If they are adjusted so the whole message is readable, an ordinary envelope will not do for submitting the solution.

[AndrewG-S]

While this is not what I did, and no way am I starting again now, there would be a way for them to be wide open (albeit in a slightly unconventional way) which would still leave the message visible

[AHearer]

Yes, Andrew G-S, that was the way I settled on, but I wasn't entirely happy.

[contendo]

I think it's OK to leave the doors closed and let the Master have the fun of opening them.

[midazolam]

OK I think that is enough. I thought we could get to end of the year without giving too much away, but as usual that is too much to ask.

I think both JEG (once finished it himself) and Samuel will have realised that it is impossible to post the grid with the thematic cells "half-way", therefore, if it is one way or another in the envelope it wont make a difference to the marking unless you have not cut "without detachment" and not highlighted the message.

Bah! Humbug, maybe. But can I reiterate that this forum is appropriate for gentle hints only, and no mention of theme words, answers or answer breakdown.

[turnerjmw]

I completely agree with your sentiments, midazolam. You'll recall the setter, Elap, pleading on the thread for Listener 4114, Three Square, that the denouement should not be given away on here. Of course it still was. But I would recommend anyone who tried the puzzle reading his account of how he set it on the blog below:

http://listenwithothe...setters-blog-by-elap/

A fascinating insight into the effort setters make for our entertainment, and why it's sad when things are given away so cheaply

[contendo]

My apologies. Sackcloth & ashes. I'll try to be more careful in future.

[Staurologist]

I am very amused by the repeated comments about [not] giving hints, and the rage that some evince when things go too far, as they see it. Why is this? Here is my list of possible reasons:

1. The setter may not want anything given away, expecting everyone to rise to the challenge individually and unaided. This is not a good reason. The setter's job is to provide entertainment for the solver. How the solver obtains it is the solver's business—alone, in pairs, with or without solving aids, whatever. The setter's expectation should be that the solver will eventually solve the puzzle, not be frustrated by failing to. It can be very frustrating not to be able to finish a puzzle, and if that is so, some entertainment is lost. Therefore, if a solver gets extra pleasure by being helped a bit, that should be acceptable. The help is justified because it adds to the general stock of pleasure the puzzle provides. [Incidentally, I am sure that Elap's comments about his puzzle were very much tongue in cheek.]
2. Some may feel that the time a setter puts into setting a puzzle should somehow be repaid by the solver. This is also irrelevant. If each solver spent only one hour trying to solve a puzzle (and most spend much more than that), 500 person-hours (on average) would be spent in solving, much more than any setter ever puts in to setting a puzzle. The setter's efforts are always more than fully repaid in this way.
3. Some solvers may feel that if they had to struggle, so should others. This is a dog-in-the-manger attitude. See also point 1.
4. Some may not want to take advantage of hints and may feel themselves robbed of the challenge if they are exposed to them. This seems to me to be reasonable, but as others often remind us, you don't have to tune in until you have finished the puzzle yourself. I don't.
5. Some may feel potentially cheated of a prize if others had help while they did not. The prizes are too trivial to bother about th

[Staurologist]

[continued] this. Some solvers who feel that they have received too much help don't submit their solutions, which is very honourable, but unnecessary in my view.

Are there any other possible reasons?

There are at least two other implications of resenting hints:
1. If human help is not allowed, non-human help should be equally frowned upon, and solving aids, such as Bradford and anagram machines, should be banned. The reductio ad absurdum of this is the the BRB should also be banned :>)
2. If one solver is not allowed to help another, pairings should not be allowed. Are there any solving trios, quartets, ... out there?

Incidentally, no-one seems to mind if two solvers communicate privately after a public request for a hint. Why does making it public alter the matter (except in the case of point 4)?

And don't forget that the more solvers submitting puzzles each week, the more likely the newspaper is to support the puzzle.

Get a life, everyone.

And, as the man said, season's greetings ....

[cluelessJoe]

.. or (f) None of the above

Anyone else care to post a dissertation before the 2010 Asscot Gold Cup gets awarded?

[jamesah]

I agree, Staurologist. Very well put! Almost finished this after a very late start getting back to Gatwick a day late yesterday just before it closed again. Pity about 'SAGO' which I thought was a good answer. I don't submit so I don't have to worry about how to send anything in- I'm happy just to get the thematic message.

[bellabee]

here is my dissertation then- i get help on a couple of listeners a year from my wife after i've filled the grid and combed it for hours on end looking for diagonals, knight's moves, dog legs,w's m's........... out of sheer exhaustion..... or i get the odd tip from here when i've hit a brickwall. although i've noticed a certain reluctance of late - maybe it's just me. i prefer a nudge rather than a blatant gimme otherwise what's the point? - i have given a hint once on this site and been chastised - i don't think i'd gone much further than what was hinted at in the preamble, [similarly the reference to 'doors' that seems to have kicked this little controversy off is clearly given in the preamble] -however i get annoyed at some comments that i feel give the game away totally - but once they are out they are out and we may as well continue the debate with this knowledge 'on the table' so to speak. i think sabre's last listener points the way this xword is going. - with a number of invisible clues to work out i finally bit the bullet and for the first time downloaded the hideous word wizard -i wouldn't have finished it otherwise, could anyone have? using this tool would make a normal listener grid-fill a doddle

[bellabee]

cont... this is what is wrong with the listener, this is why the endgames are becoming so tortuous, the preambles so ambiguous,the definitions of what constitutes a 'word' so nebulous and the editors' decisions so apparently arbitrary. the brb is not a cheat - a cryptic clue gives two ways to get the answer, a definition and wordplay - the brb confirms this process it doesn't make a b??lo?ks of the process. using word wizard makes the grid-fill a sprint and this site merely a hall of fame for the fastest finishers. it also forces setters into a corner - the invisible cryptic clue is just not helping ----merry christmas all.

[bellabee]

by the way bellabee is the wife, this is her computer, i hate technology and especially the mobile phone - and word wizard has been removed - permanently.

[Alekhine]

I don't really have a strong view either way on the 'hint' debate, but there is an old maxim (is there not?) which states that the solver should be entitled to use any aid that the setter used.

Do setters generally use word wizards?

[AndrewG-S]

Well my rant for the year is as follows. I started the Listener in March (having put off having a go for about 20 years) and have found the puzzles generally incredibly rewarding and exciting, I can recall a number of occasions lying awake in bed, getting the PDM and rushing up in the middle of the night to work out whether it was right and what would come next.
Second bit is, I have had a go at setting a couple of puzzles and it is astonishingly difficult and time consuming. I really recommend to everyone to have a go (and on the way read a book on setting clues), even if it is simply to throw your musings into the bin. The rules around clue setting are a minefield, but interesting to start to understand. The outcome is that appreciation of the brilliance of much of the cluing/setting increases dramatically. So a big thank you to those who put so much work into making these puzzles possible.
My final rant is that through AB I am now in regular dialogue with a number of people and thoroughly enjoy building new friendships through crossword solving. So thank you to all of you too.
Once again a Happy Christmas to everyone and may the New Year see a shiny BRB thudding onto your doorstep!

[contendo]

As the persona non grata who precipitated this discussion, perhaps I can offer a contribution. I agree with Midazolam that it's wrong to give too much away on this site and I shouldn't have mentioned doors as (pace Bellabee) that was something that had to be derived and wasn't given in the preamble.
Speaking more generally I get great pleasure from struggling with The Listener and enormous satisfaction when I manage to get it right, but it usually takes me 7 or 8 hours, sometimes more. The problem is what to do when you've spent all that time and have come to a brick wall. Usually putting it aside for a few hours allows light to dawn, but when it doesn't, does one just abandon it or is it reasonable to seek a gentle push in the right direction? I see nothing wrong with this, though the satisfaction is not as great as solving it with no help at all. Getting more blatant assistance seems to me to reduce the satisfaction to near zero, though it's up to the individual whether to go down that route.
As for aids such as Bradford and Word Wizard, of course they're legitimate, because they're not directed at answering a specific question; they're available to consult just like the BRB and we surely wouldn't be without that, but again perhaps it depends how much of a challenge the individual wants.
Perhaps The Master will make a contribution to the subject when he published the annual statistics.