News1 min ago
Discrimination in the Scouts.
17 Answers
Once upon a time, many moons ago, I was a scout - dibdibdib and all that. My memory is unclear over what we were required to swear to, but if god was mentioned, then I must have effectively lied.
Do you think, in our secular society, that it is right that the Scouts practice a religious discrimination, and insist on a "duty to god" as part of their investiture?
http://
From the article, this is what the boys father thinks
"Mr Pratt continued: "To be invested into the Scouts you have to believe in a God, it does not say which religion that God is from, so you can be Muslim or Buddhist, but if you have the courage to stand up and admit that you do not believe in any God then look out because you are not welcome into the Scout community. This is regardless of the fact that you are sensitive, generous, kind and genuinely a good person."
Does seem blatantly discriminatory to me, and wrong.
Do you think, in our secular society, that it is right that the Scouts practice a religious discrimination, and insist on a "duty to god" as part of their investiture?
http://
From the article, this is what the boys father thinks
"Mr Pratt continued: "To be invested into the Scouts you have to believe in a God, it does not say which religion that God is from, so you can be Muslim or Buddhist, but if you have the courage to stand up and admit that you do not believe in any God then look out because you are not welcome into the Scout community. This is regardless of the fact that you are sensitive, generous, kind and genuinely a good person."
Does seem blatantly discriminatory to me, and wrong.
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From Wiki: http://
The Scout Association in the United Kingdom
The Scout Association of the United Kingdom is flexible in their interpretation of the writings of Baden-Powell and has so far avoided the controversies facing the Boy Scouts of America. While its leaders are expected to subscribe to a recognised faith and "by their personal example to implement the Association's religious policy"[14] and "the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position",[15] the final decision on whether a particular adult is accepted as a leader is left with the District Commissioner (or the County or National Commissioner, as appropriate).[16] There are anecdotal reports of District Commissioners using this discretionary authority to allow prospective leaders (including atheists, agnostics, or pagans) into the organisation if they are satisfied that a leader's personal beliefs do not interfere with spiritual development of young people in their charge. However, since such decisions are confidential, these reports are difficult to verify.
In addition to this flexibility with the leadership, the Scout Association allows its younger members to be "searching" for a faith, allowing them to question the meaning of the promise under the direction of their section leader:
"To enable young people to grow into independent adults the Scout Method encourages young people to question what they have been taught. Scouts and Venture Scouts who question God's existence, their own spirituality or the structures and beliefs of any or all religions are simply searching for spiritual understanding. This notion of a search for enlightenment is compatible with belief in most of the world's faiths. It is unacceptable to refuse Membership, or question a young person's suitability to continue to participate fully in a Section, if they express doubts about the meaning of the Promise."[17]
The Scout Association in the United Kingdom
The Scout Association of the United Kingdom is flexible in their interpretation of the writings of Baden-Powell and has so far avoided the controversies facing the Boy Scouts of America. While its leaders are expected to subscribe to a recognised faith and "by their personal example to implement the Association's religious policy"[14] and "the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position",[15] the final decision on whether a particular adult is accepted as a leader is left with the District Commissioner (or the County or National Commissioner, as appropriate).[16] There are anecdotal reports of District Commissioners using this discretionary authority to allow prospective leaders (including atheists, agnostics, or pagans) into the organisation if they are satisfied that a leader's personal beliefs do not interfere with spiritual development of young people in their charge. However, since such decisions are confidential, these reports are difficult to verify.
In addition to this flexibility with the leadership, the Scout Association allows its younger members to be "searching" for a faith, allowing them to question the meaning of the promise under the direction of their section leader:
"To enable young people to grow into independent adults the Scout Method encourages young people to question what they have been taught. Scouts and Venture Scouts who question God's existence, their own spirituality or the structures and beliefs of any or all religions are simply searching for spiritual understanding. This notion of a search for enlightenment is compatible with belief in most of the world's faiths. It is unacceptable to refuse Membership, or question a young person's suitability to continue to participate fully in a Section, if they express doubts about the meaning of the Promise."[17]
It does seem wrong. I can't believe you can exclude someone from similar organisations because they do believe in god, so the same should apply to those who don't.
It would make sense in some situations - clubs where religious faith is at the very heart of their activities - but the scouts isn't primarily a religious organisation, it's a social one.
It would make sense in some situations - clubs where religious faith is at the very heart of their activities - but the scouts isn't primarily a religious organisation, it's a social one.
@Andrew thanks for the info - Does this mean the story as reported is in error then? Because it does seem as if this "duty to god" is part and parcel of the whole scouting movement - I appreciate the "searching" element allows for some nuance, but it still implies that the correct position is that there is a god to search for.
@furrypusscat - I see the distinction - but there is little practical difference surely? Were a girl to assert her atheism, then by definition they cannot "love my god" can they? Would they be excluded in a similar fashion?
I still think it is wrong, in a secular society, to insist that a prospective member should have to profess a duty to god or love my god. It is discriminatory, surely?
@furrypusscat - I see the distinction - but there is little practical difference surely? Were a girl to assert her atheism, then by definition they cannot "love my god" can they? Would they be excluded in a similar fashion?
I still think it is wrong, in a secular society, to insist that a prospective member should have to profess a duty to god or love my god. It is discriminatory, surely?
I was in the Brownies, and we had to say "do my duty to God" in our promise. I remember at the time feeling uncomfortable as even then I knew I didn't believe in God.
We went to church services as a Brownie troop. No-one ever mentioned or asked if any of us didn't believe in God. In fact I remember trying to believe in God, but just couldn't.
We went to church services as a Brownie troop. No-one ever mentioned or asked if any of us didn't believe in God. In fact I remember trying to believe in God, but just couldn't.
May find this interesting though it is Guides.
http://
http://
@furrypussycat - thanks for the link -interesting info.
@Sqad- oops! Well, whatever it was that scouts said I did, cos I was a member, honest :)
And you are right- in the overall scheme of things, it is not a big deal - butn so what? I can multitask, as I am sure you can. I can focus on, and do have an interest in more than one topic.
As I pointed out in my OP, we live in a secular society. To insist upon a duty to or a love of a god as part of the investiture process is discriminatory, and I think such discriminatory practices should be brought to an end -what is the harm in that?
To assert otherwise is to suggest religion or a belief in a deity - any deity - is the arbiter of morals and ethics, and everyone should know that is both absurd and untrue....
@Sqad- oops! Well, whatever it was that scouts said I did, cos I was a member, honest :)
And you are right- in the overall scheme of things, it is not a big deal - butn so what? I can multitask, as I am sure you can. I can focus on, and do have an interest in more than one topic.
As I pointed out in my OP, we live in a secular society. To insist upon a duty to or a love of a god as part of the investiture process is discriminatory, and I think such discriminatory practices should be brought to an end -what is the harm in that?
To assert otherwise is to suggest religion or a belief in a deity - any deity - is the arbiter of morals and ethics, and everyone should know that is both absurd and untrue....
@baza thats interesting regarding the etymology of the dib/dob thing - I never really thought much about what it meant :)
OG I was part of the cubs, then the scouts. I do remember, vaguely, having a green membership card and on the back of the card was the scout promise or whatever it was - but i cannot remember the detail too well now.
As naomi says, the only people being discriminated against are those people with an honestly held and expressed view that there is no god or deity - and, it seems, at least some scout leaders, and maybe guide leaders, although the story is silent on that, have the power to discriminate.
We live in a secular society, one that favours equality for all -so in this day and age, surely such practices need to be consigned to the rubbish bin?
OG I was part of the cubs, then the scouts. I do remember, vaguely, having a green membership card and on the back of the card was the scout promise or whatever it was - but i cannot remember the detail too well now.
As naomi says, the only people being discriminated against are those people with an honestly held and expressed view that there is no god or deity - and, it seems, at least some scout leaders, and maybe guide leaders, although the story is silent on that, have the power to discriminate.
We live in a secular society, one that favours equality for all -so in this day and age, surely such practices need to be consigned to the rubbish bin?
FRom Furrypussycat's Telegraph link
“It will be very difficult for it (the Guide movement) to maintain its values if it removes the ethics from where those ideas spring from. It would change the character of the Guides for the worse."
That will be because religions have a monopoly on ethics.
Must go now as I have to go out and lie, cheat, maim, rape and commit general genocide.... I am an atheist after all!!!
“It will be very difficult for it (the Guide movement) to maintain its values if it removes the ethics from where those ideas spring from. It would change the character of the Guides for the worse."
That will be because religions have a monopoly on ethics.
Must go now as I have to go out and lie, cheat, maim, rape and commit general genocide.... I am an atheist after all!!!
i would buy a hamster and name it god... then i can say 'duty to my god' without lying... haha
on one hand respect to the lad for sticking to what he believes and refusing to swear an oath, but at the same time if he really wants to go, just say the words - its meaningless anyway to an atheist, gobbledygook, so what does it matter?
its a means to an end...just words... its not like he is being forced to actually change his feelings or start believing in god...
its only like saying someone looks nice in their new dress to be polite, when you think they look awful - a white lie.
its not like they spend all day praying and reading the bible.
then again, they shouldnt be allowed to make this kind of discrimination and i suspect this is more to do with the individual scout leaders personal feelinhgs than hard and fast scout rules.
so good on him for flagging this up to be dealt with hopefully
on one hand respect to the lad for sticking to what he believes and refusing to swear an oath, but at the same time if he really wants to go, just say the words - its meaningless anyway to an atheist, gobbledygook, so what does it matter?
its a means to an end...just words... its not like he is being forced to actually change his feelings or start believing in god...
its only like saying someone looks nice in their new dress to be polite, when you think they look awful - a white lie.
its not like they spend all day praying and reading the bible.
then again, they shouldnt be allowed to make this kind of discrimination and i suspect this is more to do with the individual scout leaders personal feelinhgs than hard and fast scout rules.
so good on him for flagging this up to be dealt with hopefully
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