Should White Working-Class Boys Be Treated The Same As Ethnic Minorities?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exclusive-treat-white-workingclass-boys-like-ethnic-minority-willetts-tells-universities-8436087.html

They should according to the Universities minister David Willetts.

/// The Universities minister David Willetts wants white, working-class teenage boys put in the same category as students from other disadvantaged communities and ethnic minorities – as groups that should be targeted for recruitment. ///

[sandyRoe]

Is that the same Willetts who used to be known as 'two brains'?

[sp1814]

Well aren't white working class boys and black working class boys both disadvantaged, insomuch that they are more likely to attend 'failing schools' with the worst OfSted reports?

I'm sure I saw a league table a couple of years ago where it showed that the upper middle class children (irrespective of gender/race) had the best educational opportunities, followed by middle class white and Asian students, followed by Afro-Carribean girls, then finally white working class girls and at the bottom white working class boys and black working class boys.

I'll try to dig out the report.

[sp1814]

AOG

No idea how authorative this is, but it makes interesting reading:

http://www.teach-nology.com/currenttrends/equity_excellence/race_and_social_class/

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

I am only the messenger, but there must be problem of white working class boys being disadvantaged over others, or why else would the minister be showing concern?

[sp1814]

AOG

That's what I mean - in terms of educational achievement, white working class boys from all areas fair worse than other girls or boys of other races. Therefore, this should be recognised and countered.

[sp1814]

This is five years old:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jun/22/education.schools

And this is four years old:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7220683.stm

It's a problem that's been going on for a while.

[ZedBloke]

I see what he's getting at. Like it or not there is still a thinly veiled, "we don;t want their sort",class prejudice running through some areas of higher education. I think he's saying that the same sort of positive discrimination as afforded ethnic minorities would work with white working class lads. I tend to feel that "positive" discrimination is an oxymoron but I can see what he means.

[naomi24]

No one should receive special treatment. University entrance should be gained on merit, and merit alone.

[DTCwordfan]

Agree, merit alone......in my Masters days, things had been skewed to allow a higher number of women onto the course. Some of them did brilliantly and would have qualified anyway for entry. However, three of the bottom five were female....

If you go for entry based on anything but merit, you will rapidly end up with mediocrity in our Universities, which in turn will weaken their reputation and make them less attractive to foreign students - which in the overall balance of things they should be welcome (before the UKIP and BNP ites jump on this as being an attractive way of keeping them out).

[annie0000]

Naomi I agree to a point, but they are not starting from a level playing field - an upper middle class child will either have had private education or attended a "good school" and perhaps tutored too. They could be reasonably lazy but still get better marks than someone no matter how hard they work who has no parental support, attends a school where their education is often disrupted and when they maybe have no breakfast or a poor diet.

[DaisyNonna]

Upper Middle Class! Define please. What about ordinary youngsters who work really hard at school and do not get the education they deserve because they are not working class or immigrants and have no choice of secondary schools? If you are a gifted linguist what is the p[oint of having to attend an academy specialising in science?

[naomi24]

Annie, I realise that, but life isn't a level playing field and it never will be. How many truly talented youngsters are denied places in order that these schemes may be indulged? It's discriminatory - and it's wrong.

[annie0000]

Daisy - that is the point I made on another forum. I come from a working class background but got no help. Worked hard and am now in a position to help my kids should the choose to go to Uni but it will be a struggle. We will neither get any support by positive discrimination, but also don't have the well off parents ready to support their grandchildren - caught between a rock and hard place. But, having been where some of these kids are now then I don't really have a case for saying they should get no help when I would have appreciated it.

[annie0000]

I don't think you will be talking big numbers at all Naomi and given the amount of fees being charged i don't think it will be the small handful of poor white boys that stop some of these talented kids getting places. I would expect that the places are not going to go to kids with 1 or 2 GSCEs or whatever it is you have in England and Wales, I think it will go to kids who have slightly lower grades than they would normally have - they'd have to be pretty clever/talented to get those given their background.

[naomi24]

Annie, //I don't think you will be talking big numbers at all...//

Maybe not, but if your child were one of that number you wouldn't be happy and neither would I.

Incidentally, I'm from a poor working class background, but I gained entrance to a grammar school and what I achieved was achieved on merit - and that's exactly how it should be.

[annie0000]

I'm from a poor working class background too Naomi and even if I had been encouraged enough to sit a test for a grammar school, my parents would have had no way of getting me there. I worked hard and got a job at a time when jobs were scarce and worked my way up and attended college part time and am happy with what I have achieved, who knows if it would have been different if I'd gone to Uni.

I know what you are saying and I do agree and yes I would be miffed if it was my child that missed out, but part of me still thinks that there are an albeit small amount of kids out there that i would like to see get a break and credit for what they have achieved.

At the end of the day the Uni's will not take anyone that they think cannot complete the degree and that is not just about academic achievement. But I am also not sure that there aren't enough places to go round everyone who genuinely deserves one as well as those that an easily pay for one.

[naomi24]

Annie, //but part of me still thinks that there are an albeit small amount of kids out there that i would like to see get a break and credit for what they have achieved.//

This is exactly why grammar schools should never have been disbanded. They gave bright youngsters from poor backgrounds a chance to prove themselves and to improve their lot in life without the patronising schemes we see today. I'd hate to be patronised in that way.

Got to go to bed. Night. x

[annie0000]

Me too - nite x

[dave50]

There should be no such social engineering for any so called minority. Everyone goes to school so it's up to each individual to work hard and strive to do well. Bending the rules for those who don't helps no one. If the schools are to blame then improve them. It's not the university's fault that some are not bright enough to gain entry, the fault lies earlier on in life.

[naomi24]

Dave, absolutely right. If poor but bright kids receive a sub-standard level of education, then the system is at fault and needs to be remedied at grass roots level.