Is This One Debate That Is Long Overdue?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10611050/Revealed-The-one-in-nine-schools-where-English-is-not-first-language.html

/// Douglas Carswell, a back-bench Tory MP, said that Britain's needs to have a "national debate" about the impact of immigration on social cohesion. ///

In some area's schools English children are in the minority in there own country, can this be right?

/// To help cope with the growing diversity of their pupils, schools have enlisted interpreters to help at parents evenings and bi-lingual teaching assistants for reception classes. ///

[Gromit]

You mean overdue since the last time you posted on it?

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1117996.html

[Old_Jim]

What language had he in mind for the debate?

My experience is that many children arrive at school unable to speak much English - and that includes many whose parents are English. Provided there's not a dominant foreign language group in the playground, they soon learn. Who knows, we might finish up with a nation who can speak more than one language.

[Gromit]

// In some area's schools English children are in the minority in there own country, can this be right? //

Not the best post on the subject of English.

[sp1814]

The debate has been going on for some time now, hasn't it?

And included in the debate should be the impact on schools which fall into this category, and why they are doing so well. From the report in the Telegraph is this telling point:

"Of the ten schools with the highest proportion of children who do not speak english as their first language, all but two are outside London. All but one are rated as either good or outstanding by Ofsted, the schools watchdog."

And so as not to confuse matters, it might be helpful to understand the standard of English these pupils have as opposed to their parents.

Parents need to have a good basic grasp of English, otherwise they will be unable to help with homework and read report cards etc. However, just because a child speaks one language at home and another in school doesn't lend itself easily to the debate on immigration.

Especially when those schools are rated as 'good' or 'outstanding'.

[THECORBYLOON]

How many pupils are there in these schools? There could be fifty wee ones in each of those schools for all we know, which means the actual number is very small.

[anotheoldgit]

Gromit

Can't you just enter into the debate without the constant need for personal criticism Gromit? This type of thing only alienates one against the other, and turns the whole thing into a slanging match.

If you haven't anything constructive to say just ignore my threads and move on.

[sp1814]

AOG

Should the 'national debate' (whatever that is) look at aspects of immigration which don't normally get much air time?

For instance, is there a link between the way that some immigrant communities focus on educational attainment, and how those attitudes can be adopted those for whom the education system is failing...the families of white working class boys?

Seeing as the schools mentioned in the Telegraph report are doing so well (bar one), should the government be looking to immigrant families (specifically those from South East Asia) to help those English kids who, have poor language and literacy skills:

http://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2013/jan/17/working-class-boys-raise-attainment

[THECORBYLOON]

I wasn't able to open the link but now that I have, I see there is a table of the schools. Adding the figures up, it shows just under one in fourteen do not have English as their first language so it is not a bad as the headlines claim.

[Gromit]

Not sure how they arrive at 1 in 9 schools.

There are 24,500 schools in England.

1,755 schools is more like 1 in 14.

Of course many of the children who have English as their second language are British and were born here. And they are bi-lingual.

[THECORBYLOON]

That would tie in with my calculations then.

[mushroom25]

there would need to be a debate if there were schools highlighted with a majority proportion of pupils who spoke no English at all; but this doesn't appear to be the case.

[anotheoldgit]

THECORBYLOON

/// How many pupils are there in these schools? There could be fifty wee ones in each of those schools for all we know, which means the actual number is very small.///

It matters not how many are in the schools, you quote 50 well say out of those fifty only 2 speak English, would you like it if one of those two children were one of yours? taking into consideration that you are English also.

But please take a look at that list of schools then you can view the actual figures for yourself.

[THECORBYLOON]

ANOTHEOLDGIT, I have looked, thanks.

[THECORBYLOON]

If the wee ones' first language is not English, it does not mean they speak no English at all.

[sp1814]

AOG

As the schools identified are doing well in the Ofsted report, can you let us know what your concerns are.

[seadogg]

I would have thought the relatively poor performance of so many working class boys
in our schools is of more concern at the present time. it seems that the most language poor scloolkids I come across taking groups round the lifeboat house comes from this category.

[sp1814]

I agree with you. There's an untold story which is left out of this debate, regarding the relative failure of working class English boys to attain significant achievements in education.

This is not really a race issue, because working class English girls consistently do better than their make counterparts.

So AOG - should we be encouraging English boys to transfer to schools with high numbers of children who speak English as a second language, in order that they might start 'raising their game' in order to emulate children of immigrant families?

[sp1814]

For 'make' read 'make'.

[sp1814]

Gaash!

For 'make' read 'male'.

[Canary42]

Integration for these immigrants is very difficult thanks to rampant xenophobia by many of the indigenous population. This leads to ghettoisation which in turn leads to the "minority" situation occurring in this case. Instead of persistently and relentlessly attacking immigrants at every opportunity, a more constructive attitude would work wonders (I have extensive experience of working with immigrants and have found little to complain about, many of them outshining a certain section of "Brits" in tolerance and understanding in spite of undisguised hostility from the latter)