children using calculators

[mimififi]

hi there

my children are home-educated and as such have not used calculators for their numeracy yet. We have used calulators for specific exercises so they know how to use them, but I don't let them use them for their every day work, the have to work things out in their heads although they do also use paper and pen for more difficult sums such as long division and long multiplication etc.

The question is this: my daughter is very good at mathematical concepts. She is 11 and is doing multiplication and division of mixed numbers and fractions and top heavy fractions. She has recently also done several exercises on converting imperial measures including pints, bushels, pecks and quarts etc to metric and vice versa and also converting imperial measures into larger imperial measures. She has done pages and pages and gets about 95% right when doing them in her head. As she gets to the end of the excercise, she begins to make mistakes not in the conept but in the arithmatic and I kind of know how she feels. When I am doing pages and pages of sums in my head, I gradually get 'blind' and then start making mistakes.

Should I begin to let heruse a calculator if she understands the concept just to make her mental arithmetic more accurate and thus give her a better % of accuracy? My husband says I should he likens it to my sewing: I know how to sew by hand but it is slow and untidy so I sew with a machine which doesn't mean I don't know how to, it just gives a higher quality result.

What age to kids use calculators in school? SHould I let her have one and then just make sure I do daily mental math with her also?

cheers me mathematical dears.

[xanderma]

My daughter uses a calculator at school, and she's just 10. They do lots of mental arithmetic as well, also written maths.

They seem to use as many different techniques as possible to solve all maths problems, the theory being that the children can then chose the strategy they feel most comfortable with or the most appropriate.

As a mere mum (!) I feel that as long as children understand the theory of the maths behind the calculation, then calculators are fine. I was always taught that it was important to be able to work out a sum "roughly" in the head, so that if the calculator gives a wild and whacky answer (maybe through mis-keying etc), then it would be obvious.

I agree with your sewing analogy - and, for what it's worth, to me your daughter sounds more than equipped for understanding wise and appropriate use of technology.

Regards - Diane

[mimififi]

Hi Diane, thank you for your answer I appreciate you taking the trouble to answer.

I guess that makes a lot of sense, I just didn't want to jump in let her do the calculator thing and then find out she can't add up a pound of carrots and bottle or ribena in tesco!

I guess I need to just make sure she does the working out on paper and just uses a calculator for aritmetic. I have issues with teaching math as it is not my first subject so I am perhaps more deligent with it than I am with the others!

Would a simple 4 operator calculator be ok? or does she need a scientific one?

cheers, love mimi

[JustSia]

Hi mimififi!

The school I went to did not allow the use of calculators until we started doing advanced algebra. We were encouraged to carry out all calculations on the paper and cutting them short used to cost us marks.

At the time I was very vocal about it being a useless exercise especially when I could do the sums in my head. Now, however, I see the reason behind it. Not only does it develop attention to detail and structure to problem solving but it also gives you a way of easily locating a potential mistake, rather than doing the entire calculation all over again.

In my opinion you should carry on with things the way they are. Get her to do and write down the calculations first and then check the answer doing it on the calculator. That will become a routine and make things a lot easier once they go into quadratic equations and such.

Keep up the good work.

S.

[dancecaller]

I agree with the idea of using a caculator but checking if the answer is sensible.

Are you giving her too many long excersises to do? When I was taking A level maths we had a teacher who said "do as many as you need to" and we had the answers in the back of the book, so once we were sure we were getting them right there was no need to go on. (At her age you would have to decide how much was enough)

Do you give her excercises in approximation?

e.g true or false 20x30>100

Which is nearer to 31x29, 60,900, or 1,200

[mimififi]

well, you guys, I was hoping for a concensus of opinion to way lay my concerns, but it turns out this subject is a minefield.

I'm not sure what to do. Both camps sound so logical. maybe I will compromise and say that if the excercises are too long, she should do the even numbers first and if they are all correct, she needn't do the odds; she can then use the odds as study material for the test at the end of each book.

The books I use don't stipulate whether it is ok or not to use a calculator. I know that she doesn't memorise her tables yet, she just works them all out each time. Maybe I should say until she knows all her tables 0-15, she can't use a calculator. As I say, her concepts are there, but maybe she should be able to compute quicker in her brain.

I think I shall wait a while with the calculator at least until next year (when she'll be at the end of year 8) but just not over egg the pudding when it comes to long exercises and I shall plug tables, tables, tables.

She does have a good memory for everything else, just she can't be fagged to learn tables.

Thank you for all your helps. I do appreciate it.
love
mimi

[jake-the-peg]

It's important to be moderately competant at mental maths but when you've attained a certain capacity you have to think about why you want to hone the skill.

I used to work as a physicist at the atomic energy authority and neither I nor any of my colleagues would do a significant amount of mental maths unless playing darts or calculating a bar bill!

Up to secondary school children don't really seem to do any significant maths - it's all arithmetic. They seem to start to do some maths after that and it would be a shame to waste time that could be spent introducing really important concepts like algebra in trying to get an improvement from 95%

[mimififi]

so jake, do you think i should allow her to use a calculator as her errors are purely mental arithmetic and nothing to do with the concepts that she has been learning? She has a very good grasp of coneptual maths (if that's what it is called) and has done some algebra and worked alot on ratios, loads of geometry and masses on fractions. She can do long division and multiplication if she had to on paper and is in fact very good at the processes.

Do you think I'm flogging a dead horse? She is very good at maths, though I'm not maths expert but she is becomming demotivated and is beginning to find maths dull and onerous. Do you think I should let her use a calculator and allow her to take off into other concepts?

I value all your opinions in trying to work out which mathematical road would be best to take.

Thank you.

[Trotbot]

My brief tup'pence worth is that I was not allowed a calculator until I could prove I didn't need one. Now I can instinctively look at numbers and know whether they are right or wrong (not neceesarily why, without checking) which is a very useful skill. Once you have proved something, how many times do you need to prove it again?

[noxlumos]

Hello Mimi I didn't know you kisd were home ed, ours are as well:)

With maths as soon as the concept is grasped and set instone and they are absolutely clear on HOW to do it and are getting it consistantly right then we let them use calculators.I'm fussy that they keep up their mental agility with numbers though but I do think it's safe enough if your kid is strong in maths to cut out the slog for them so I agree with your husband:)

[lady_p_gold]

This might sound mad but you sound like the sort of family who might be interested in using an abacus .... sort of halfway house, I have seen some Japanese children using them and they are quite amazing.

[mimififi]

Hi Nox: thank you for your help. I didn't know that you were part of the home ed clan either, I shall remember that and be on at you for more help and advice in the future: i don't suppose you have any boys do you , I do and I find him just so different to my four girls in teaching him that sometimes I am at my wits end (But that is an entirely another thread!)

So, you think calculators are ok? I think I might split math into two: Maths and mental maths and spend time each day on both. I want maths to be exciting for her and if she gets a buz from the concepts and working at speed then so be it; I can keep an eye on her mental maths in another way. Isn't it hard as a home schooler ! Sometimes you just get stumped on the most weirdest of things!!!!

(P.S have you decided on a name for your little angel yet??????)

[mimififi]

I wonder if a slide rule would be a good half way house? Don't know anything about them though, would have to look it up.

Lady_p good idea re the abacus. I used to live in a Hong Kong and had friends who used them in school! Weird huh, I did learn how to add and subtract, but dividing and multiplying was just way beyond my capabilities....it was more tricky than it looked. Dimple Zin was an expert though and she even used one in her O'level exam......spooky.

[jake-the-peg]

I think that if she's now reasonably competant at mental arithmetic it's probably getting time to move on.

Maths is so much more than adding subtracting multiplying and dividing.

Time to think about algebra: x is a mystery number if x+1 is 3 what is x?

Time to look at geometry, with a protractor - what do the internal angles of a triangle add up to?

Time to start drawing graphs and plotting lines. X and Y axies etc.

These things are really important for engineering, computer programming, financial planning infact any numerate discipline. Arithmetic is the nuts and bolts of maths not maths itself.

I think a lot of kids have a slight drop off in mental maths when they stop practicing and move on to bigger and better things but that's to be expected - remember you're probably not trying to bring up the perfect barmaid!

If maths is a bit dull you and she might enjoy this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1862078289/qid=1146211497/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/202-9308925-7567027

[mimififi]

Jake-the-peg, you are a little hero, thank you so much for all the effort you have gone to for me, I appreciate more than I can type!

I think you are right, it is time to move on. I think I shall definately start seperating the two issues Maths and Mental arithmetic. The latter can be less formal and more like games, the former just more satisfying for her before she gets totally turned off maths.

Thank you again for your wise help, and to all the others who posted always. it so nice to have so much wisdom at the end of a modem.

Ciou-ciou
lots of love
mimi
X

[EssJay1]

Don't forget she can use the calculator to do inverse checks, rather than just the calculation. The point is, if she knows the approach to take, then the calcualtor becomes a tool. Much like using a WP package for writing a letter, or the internet for rersearch. It's what she does with it that matters.
BTW, why do you want her to learn her tables to 15? If she knows her 10 and 5, she can derive the 15 quite quickly, or the 16 with the 10 and 6, or by doubling the 8. Especially as you imply she's having trouble learning them to 15.

[sudu]

I am doing my GCSEs this year and we have a non-calculator paper and a calculator. we started using calculators in year 7, when we started other maths, away from arithmetic as someone else said. i'm no teacher or anything but wouldn't it be an idea to let her get used to a calculator slowly and steadily so that she can start doing things like trigonometry in a couple of years (i started in year 9) which definately needs a calculator.

[cheater123]

Hi i am currently doing my GCSE's. In our text books it states whether we should use a calculator or not at different stages of the book. Maybe you should consider looking through these sort of books so you can see which ones she needs to be able to do without a calculator. I think she should be able to use a calculator most of the time though as long as you check she can still do the working out herself.

[mimififi]

after much umming and ahhing I have decided to let her use a calculator to do repetitive work for things that she could work out but that would take up large amounts of time, however, she is not allowed to use one for new concepts, nor for operating numbers less than 100. She is also not allowed to use it for the whole sum, just parts of the sum and still has to show each line of working.

but, i needn't have worried, as when I told her today she could use one to speed up her numeracy, she said, "Mummy, why would I want one? What's the point of doing numeracy if you 're not going to do it in your head?" She then went on to try and bargain with me and see if they did an alternative calculator that could be used for speeding up grammar excercises! I told her, no.

thanks for all your help. i post back next time my Home Education is in crisis!!!!!

[thatman]

Since intelligence isn't know the answers but knowing where and how to find the answers, then I see no reason not to allow your daughter to use a calculator, since she understands the concepts.

An ex teacher of mine said that if everyone were allowed to take anything into the exam with them the only difference would be the average mark would go up, the actual rank of personal marks would keep the same order. As a class we disagreed, but we tried it and he was correct. We wondered how this could be so. His logic ,as ever, was ingenious.The people who need to use crib aids won't know how to use them, and those who know how to use them, won't need them!

So even he would agrre, if she understand the concepts she is dealing with, a calculator is purely checking the answer not detracting from mathematics,