Someone please help regarding paying for goods via PayPal!

[Sonak]

This is linked to a question which I had already posted on AB, but the situation has got worse.

Myself and my partner had paid for 2 seater sofas from an internet company (not sure if I'm allowed to state their name). The order was placed with a deposit on the 27th Feb 2007 and then the full amount would be paid once the sofas have arrived in the UK (6-7 weeks) as they are coming from Italy. We did pay in full and still have NOT received the sofas. we paid a total of �999!

My partner has sent countless emails to the seller about this as they have breached their time frame for delivery, they have also changed their company number to a mobile number. We have spoken to the seller but they appear to be very dodgy with the way deal with all this so in the end we requested for a refund.

We reported all this to the police and to PayPal.
PayPal have told us that we CANNOT claim any money back as it should have been claimed within 45 Days!
We said to PayPal that how were we suppose to do this as the time frame to get the sofas was 6-7 weeks. The sofa company stated that we had to pay a deposit first and then after payment in full.

My question is PayPal right to do this and what legal path can we take with Paypal?
What protection do PayPal customers have after 45 days as in our situation it was impossible to claim something if we were still in the process of getting these sofas?

Is there anyone out there who can help or has been in this situation before?

[Buenchico]

PayPal are not a credit company, so they're not covered by the legislation which applies to those companies. There is no legal obligation upon them to provide any guarantees to those who use their service. (They're no more obliged to help you than your bank would be if you'd paid by cheque). The fact that they do so is purely a matter of goodwill. As such, it's entirely up to PayPal to determine the terms of their guarantee. If they choose 45 days as the maximum period during which they'll provide assistance, that's up to them. You have no legal right to challenge this.

If you made the payment to PayPal with a credit card (rather than with a debit card or a direct transfer from your bank) you might be able to seek assistance (and a possible refund) from the credit card company. You would definitely have had the right to do so if you'd paid the supplier directly from a credit card. It's less clear whether you're entitled to claim against a credit card company if a payment is made through a third party, such as PayPal.

If you didn't pay via a credit card, the only firm you can pursue is the supplier. Their website should have a postal address on it. (It's a criminal offence for a UK online retailer not to include a postal address on their website. If there's no address, contact Trading Standards). Write a letter which states that, because the supplier has exceeded the stated delivery time, you now regard your contract with them as null and void. Demand repayment of your money. State that, if you don't receive payment within 14 days, you'll pursue the matter through the courts. Send the letter by recorded delivery. Keep a copy of the letter and retain the proof of posting. If you don't get your money back within the stated period, visit your local county court to get advice about starting proceedings against the supplier.

Chris

[Whickerman]

Name the company - if you're only stating fact you can't be libellous. And you could stop others getting caught out.

[Sonak]

Thanks Buenchico for your time and advice.

By law if you request a full refund from the company which we have done so through a letter (recorded delivery), how soon should they refund the payment? We've had recent communications with the seller who claims they have moved house and have NO internet access and also says that they will refund us but they won't do it immediately, they said they will do it in 28 days. Why 28 days?

[Sonak]

The company is The Italian Sofa Company, for the website its the same name (. com)

[Whickerman]

28 days could be their accounts period - in the company I work for the accounts dept are only authorised to write cheques every 30 days. Good luck though.

[lady_p_gold]

Just been to their website, maybe we should all e mail them and tell them to get their act together !!

[lady_p_gold]

On further perusal of their terms and conditions they sound highly dodgy, there is a clause saying that 'as the sofas are made to personal order that negates the 7 day cooling off period' and there are spelling mistakes like 'untill' and 'arrivel' and something about their not being responsible if it is not delivered owing to circumstances beyond their control, that and only having a mobile number would flag up warning bells to me. The sooner you start proceedings the better I would say.

[Whickerman]

http://www.theitaliansofacompany.com/termscond itions.htm

Term 2 here may be somenthing you need to worry about...

[Buenchico]

(Multi-part post):

Thanks for the reply.

In general, the law doesn't specify a time period for the settlement of civil matters. It just allows that 'reasonable time' must be allowed for the payment of any monies owed. Most firms generally take this to mean 14, 21 or 28 days (because those are the sorts of time periods which a court might allow for the settlement of a debt).

In the same way that utility companies will always hassle you for payment of bills after a very short time, but keep you waiting for ages when they owe you money, it's usual to demand payment in a short period of time but offer to pay it over a longer one. (i.e. if the matter came to court, you could argue that 14 days is a reasonable time to wait for your money but the supplier would argue that 28 days is also reasonable). If the firm has offered to refund your money within 28 days (which, as I've indicated, is at the upper end of a 'reasonable' period of time), it's unlikely that you could initiate court action prior to the end of this period.

[Buenchico]

I suggest sending a recorded delivery letter, confirming that you have received their offer of payment within 28 days but making it clear that you will immediately proceed to court action if the payment is not received by that date. NB: Make sure that you specify the exact dates, e.g. "I am in receipt of your letter of 2 May 2007. I note that you offer an assurance that I will receive the money owed to me within 28 days, i.e. by 30 May 2007. TAKE NOTICE that, should no such payment be received by that date, I will commence legal action against you on 31 May 2007".

I've taken a look at their website and there are a couple of things which set alarm bells ringing in my mind. Firstly, the fact that they don't directly accept credit cards is odd. That wouldn't be unusual for, say, a part-time trader dealing in hand-made craft products but most firms who're going to be accepting large amounts of money will normally sign up to accept Visa and Mastercard directly. (They pay less commission when they accept debit/credit cards than they do with PayPal). The absence of direct card payment facilities suggests either that it's a very amateurish set up or that they can't sign up because of a poor credit record.

[Buenchico]

Secondly, I'm concerned about paragraph 2 of their terms and conditions:
http://www.theitaliansofacompany.com/termscond itions.htm
The fact that they find it necessary to use bold type suggests that yours isn't the first such problem. More importantly, I feel confident that a court would rule that the inclusion of such a term is illegal (and invalid) under the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

Also, if they've got no internet access, how do they expect people to contact them to place orders? (The e-mail address still appears on their website). It's possible that you might be deprived of internet access for a short while when you move house but anyone who's running a business from home would normally think about that and, if nothing else, ensure that he could send and receive business e-mails via a friend or an internet caf�.

Good luck!

Chris

[Sonak]

Thanks to everyone for their advice & comments.

Can I just remind everyone that this 'so called' company, appears to be run from home!!!!
Also the address on the website which has been on their originally, is apparently the new address that the seller has moved to! Huh, does that make sense!!!!!

Italian Sofa Company is something which has been set up from home and has only one person representing their 'so called' company! They are true CON-ARTISTS!

[Sonak]

Just got a text message from the seller saying check your PayPal account as your refund as been made.

My partner has just checked our PayPal a/c and it states an attempt for a refund has been carried out but it also states 'Refused'. We phoned PayPal to query this and PayPal have said this is because the seller has insufficient funds in their account therefore NO payment has been made! Can this get any worse!!!???

[lady_p_gold]

How about contacting Watchdog, there may be others in your situation ... might work