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Favourite Britons?
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So, who are your favourite Britons in history? Sorry for the British focus, but that's where nearly all the ABer's I'm aware of are from.
Nominees must preferably number no more than 5, and should be born in the British isles (there are plenty of great British subjects, but it rather complicates things).
Please state the reasons for your nominations, as it makes things more interesting. I shall add mine in another post later...
Nominees must preferably number no more than 5, and should be born in the British isles (there are plenty of great British subjects, but it rather complicates things).
Please state the reasons for your nominations, as it makes things more interesting. I shall add mine in another post later...
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Well, Zac beat me to it... as an American, I've studied a great deal about this remarkable man... taking nothing away from the courage of the average Brit during that time, he, almost singlehandedly, saved our mother nation and in doing so, saved western civilization.... by the way, he was treated rather shabbily by ya'll following the War, in my opinion...
These are quite personal preferences, but one's I think deserve mention :
Charles Babbage - Creator of the difference engine. The fact he baked himself in an over for 4 minutes at 130 degrees "to see what would happen" shouldn't detract from the man's genius.
Alan Turing - Father of modern day computing. Without him, I wouldn't have a job.
John Lennon - Quite a good musician. Still liked by old and young so I believe.
Last but not least, 'The Unknown Warrior' whom I think should have come much higher in that program the other year. Admittedly it ultimately represents more than one person, but without the sacrifices of these people, we would be living a very different life now.
Charles Babbage - Creator of the difference engine. The fact he baked himself in an over for 4 minutes at 130 degrees "to see what would happen" shouldn't detract from the man's genius.
Alan Turing - Father of modern day computing. Without him, I wouldn't have a job.
John Lennon - Quite a good musician. Still liked by old and young so I believe.
Last but not least, 'The Unknown Warrior' whom I think should have come much higher in that program the other year. Admittedly it ultimately represents more than one person, but without the sacrifices of these people, we would be living a very different life now.
I have always had a soft spot for people who work on their own for little or no reward and yet produce things of great importance or value.
So I nominate John Harrison.
He was not a highly educated man (self taught) but became the greatest clockmaker of his age, working on his own and making clocks far more accurate than anyone else at the time.
His surviving clocks are very valuable (it was a Harrison watch that made Del Boy rich in Only Fools and Horses)
He helped solve the longitude problem which had plauged British ships for years and caused many deaths.
He worked on one of his clocks for 19 years, the one called H3
You can read more of him here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison
Some of his clocks are works of art:
http://www.esa.int/images/clock_h1400.jpg
You can see some of his clocks in the Royal Observatory in Greewich
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.355
So I nominate John Harrison.
He was not a highly educated man (self taught) but became the greatest clockmaker of his age, working on his own and making clocks far more accurate than anyone else at the time.
His surviving clocks are very valuable (it was a Harrison watch that made Del Boy rich in Only Fools and Horses)
He helped solve the longitude problem which had plauged British ships for years and caused many deaths.
He worked on one of his clocks for 19 years, the one called H3
You can read more of him here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison
Some of his clocks are works of art:
http://www.esa.int/images/clock_h1400.jpg
You can see some of his clocks in the Royal Observatory in Greewich
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.355
Following on from men working on their own for little or no reward I nominate Alfred Wainwright.
He was a shy, modest man who was born in Blackburn but fell in love with the Lake District the first time he went there.
He eventually got a job with the council in the Lake District, in Kendal.
Even though he was in full time work he then set about producing a series of guides of the Lake District which are works of art in themselves.
The books took him 13 years to produce.
Each weekend he would set out by bus (he had no car) and walk up and down different fells all weekend.
In the evenings he would HAND DRAW every single word and picture in these books, giving an overview of each fell, the different ways up and down, the views from the top and so on.
He was a perfectoinist and if a mistake was made on a page he would screw it up and start again.
He was so determined to make the pages look neat that he lined up the text in both the left margin AND right margin, not easy with hand written text.
The 7 books were published between 1955 and 1966 and are STILL used on the fells today. Before seting out on a lake district walk people still say "got your Wainwright?"
Go into any decent bookshop and they will have copies of Wainwright in the travel section.
After producing these 7 books he then produced other books of walks in Scotland and so on, as well a books of his drawings etc.
More on his books here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictorial_Guide_t o_the_Lakeland_Fells
There is also a Wainwright society
http://www.wainwright.org.uk/
He was a shy, modest man who was born in Blackburn but fell in love with the Lake District the first time he went there.
He eventually got a job with the council in the Lake District, in Kendal.
Even though he was in full time work he then set about producing a series of guides of the Lake District which are works of art in themselves.
The books took him 13 years to produce.
Each weekend he would set out by bus (he had no car) and walk up and down different fells all weekend.
In the evenings he would HAND DRAW every single word and picture in these books, giving an overview of each fell, the different ways up and down, the views from the top and so on.
He was a perfectoinist and if a mistake was made on a page he would screw it up and start again.
He was so determined to make the pages look neat that he lined up the text in both the left margin AND right margin, not easy with hand written text.
The 7 books were published between 1955 and 1966 and are STILL used on the fells today. Before seting out on a lake district walk people still say "got your Wainwright?"
Go into any decent bookshop and they will have copies of Wainwright in the travel section.
After producing these 7 books he then produced other books of walks in Scotland and so on, as well a books of his drawings etc.
More on his books here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictorial_Guide_t o_the_Lakeland_Fells
There is also a Wainwright society
http://www.wainwright.org.uk/
I also nominate Chalres Darwin, a man who changed the way we all view the history of the living world.
He had been rather a failure in his early life, where his father had hoped he would become a doctor.
He then studied Theology with the idea of joning the church, but he then met a lecturer at university who introduced him to the world of nature.
He joined the ship Beagle which was going to visit numerous countries and chart the coast for the navy.
He was with Beagle for 5 YEARS (can you imagine that) but during this time found dinasour bones in Argentina, and studied birds and other animals on the Galapagos islands.
Eventually, back home and after some delay, he published his book Origin of the species, to much ridicule at the time.
Now of course we take natural evolution for granted, but in those days peple still felt that God created the earth in 6 days and anything that contradicted that was treated with much contempt.
To come up with his theories took some doing, but to publish the book as well was very brave of him.
He had been rather a failure in his early life, where his father had hoped he would become a doctor.
He then studied Theology with the idea of joning the church, but he then met a lecturer at university who introduced him to the world of nature.
He joined the ship Beagle which was going to visit numerous countries and chart the coast for the navy.
He was with Beagle for 5 YEARS (can you imagine that) but during this time found dinasour bones in Argentina, and studied birds and other animals on the Galapagos islands.
Eventually, back home and after some delay, he published his book Origin of the species, to much ridicule at the time.
Now of course we take natural evolution for granted, but in those days peple still felt that God created the earth in 6 days and anything that contradicted that was treated with much contempt.
To come up with his theories took some doing, but to publish the book as well was very brave of him.
Isombard Kingdom Brunel, at a time when the Industrial Revolution was producing great men & women in all walks of life Brunel was outstanding in that, while most of his comtemperies excelled in just one particular aspect of their chosen field, Brunel was a great inovator in all the forms of engineering to which he turned his hand .
Beat me to it Paddy. IKB was the last true Civil Engineer. This was when you were a 'civil' as opposed to 'military' engineer. He is my all time hero and was the reason I became a Civil Engineer, but his life and what he did in it are amazing. Everyone has heard of the famous things like Clifton Suspension Bridge (which was actually completed after his death and not quite to his design), the GWR and all its structures (including the architectural drawings for every station on the line and the engine works at Swindon) and the the 3 'Great' ships, but apart from this at 18 he was the chief site engineer on the Thames Tunnel. He built docks in Sunderland and Wales, he built railways in India, he designed and built a prefabricated hospital for use in the Crimean War, he designed forceps to remove a coin trapped in his own windpipe (the design is still in use today), at the age of 8 he surveyed and drew up a plan of Hastings (and predicted a new house would collapse..which, of course, it did!). He was a Special Constable and helped quell a riot at one of the navvies camps on the GWR. Unfortunately all this energy came at a price. He died aged only 53, but in his last photo he looked 73. A truely Great Briton whom I would have loved to meet.
Lastly, I'm sure we have all seen this photo of him.
http://www.childrenswebmagazine.com/Images/bru nel.jpg
It is posed against the brake drum and chains for the launching of the 'Great Eastern'. On the back he wrote:"I asked Mr Russell [The shipyard owner] to stand with me, but he would not, so I alone am hung in chains!"
Lastly, I'm sure we have all seen this photo of him.
http://www.childrenswebmagazine.com/Images/bru nel.jpg
It is posed against the brake drum and chains for the launching of the 'Great Eastern'. On the back he wrote:"I asked Mr Russell [The shipyard owner] to stand with me, but he would not, so I alone am hung in chains!"
The problem is finding only five...
Darwin, certainly; but his work might have taken longer to reach acceptance if it were not for T.H. Huxley;
Brunel also; but what about Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell? And not forgetting Newton, of course.
Politicians: Churchill, certainly (at least in the 20th C.) but during his last premiership he was a spent force.
John Maynard Keynes was the right man at the right time but his economic theories are not so well regarded now. Again, with politicians and economists, I risk challenges from others.......!!
Darwin, certainly; but his work might have taken longer to reach acceptance if it were not for T.H. Huxley;
Brunel also; but what about Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell? And not forgetting Newton, of course.
Politicians: Churchill, certainly (at least in the 20th C.) but during his last premiership he was a spent force.
John Maynard Keynes was the right man at the right time but his economic theories are not so well regarded now. Again, with politicians and economists, I risk challenges from others.......!!
Mine, in no particular order:
WInston Churchill - allready stated.
John Locke - advancing theory of matter, liberalism etc.
David Lloyd George - had a horrendously difficult term as PM, but still managed to introduce the first system of social welfare in the UK, extended the franchise etc.
Margaret Thatcher - My feelings toward her are rather mixed, but whether you love her or loathe her, her revolution has changed the face of Britain and British politics, whether for better or for worse. Also the first female premier.
5th place is a toss-up between Gladstone (modernisation of nearly every aspect of government) and Attlee (creation of the NHS, welfare state etc).
WInston Churchill - allready stated.
John Locke - advancing theory of matter, liberalism etc.
David Lloyd George - had a horrendously difficult term as PM, but still managed to introduce the first system of social welfare in the UK, extended the franchise etc.
Margaret Thatcher - My feelings toward her are rather mixed, but whether you love her or loathe her, her revolution has changed the face of Britain and British politics, whether for better or for worse. Also the first female premier.
5th place is a toss-up between Gladstone (modernisation of nearly every aspect of government) and Attlee (creation of the NHS, welfare state etc).
Churchill owes his reputation to the 6 war years - he was responsible for the military disaster that was Gallipoli and returned Britain to the Gold Standard in 1925 at an inappropriate rate triggering a deflationary spiral undermining the economy and unemployment.
If you want to cite Churchill as the Greatest Briton you ought to have some good reasons for the other 85 years of his life.
My greatest Briton was Francis Bacon. He pretty much founded the concept of scientific method years before Gallelio and underpinned enlightenment thought.
He's always considerred inferior in these polls to Newton but that's partly because Newton was an unbelievable self Publicist control freak and all round fruit-cake
Bacon's is probably the greatest Briton you never heard of.
If you want to cite Churchill as the Greatest Briton you ought to have some good reasons for the other 85 years of his life.
My greatest Briton was Francis Bacon. He pretty much founded the concept of scientific method years before Gallelio and underpinned enlightenment thought.
He's always considerred inferior in these polls to Newton but that's partly because Newton was an unbelievable self Publicist control freak and all round fruit-cake
Bacon's is probably the greatest Briton you never heard of.
I agree with Jake, people who cite Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher as best Britons tend to be quagmired in nostalgic reminiscence. Whilst we can look back and admire Thatcherism and her �iron lady� image, even I remember how hated she was at the time. I was at school when she took away our milk! And was a first time buyer when she introduced the poll tax. Also, she was � like Blair � a puppet for US foreign policy and Reagan's gimp (remember Spitting Image?).
Churchill may be the image we all get through history classes as the �saviour� of the war and the instigator of �national spirit� but he also labelled jews as Hebrew bloodsuckers who bought the antagonism upon themselves. Nice. As Jake points out so eloquently you would be hard pressed to find anything favourable about him outside of the government produced history.
Intersesting that someone cited Henry VII and mentioned Roman rule. Yes he dissolved the power of the church in England, but he did this by ruling that God spoke through him. Any decisions of conscience decreed by Henry was a direct instruction from God through him. Also his reforms were particularly heinous - see Robert Aske et al.
Personally I don�t know if I would pick any �favourite� Britons, but I certainly have some level of admiration for Nelson and Charles Dickens, although I am sure that both had elements of their lives that we would find unfavourable today. Ah, if only Julius Caeser were british.....!
Churchill may be the image we all get through history classes as the �saviour� of the war and the instigator of �national spirit� but he also labelled jews as Hebrew bloodsuckers who bought the antagonism upon themselves. Nice. As Jake points out so eloquently you would be hard pressed to find anything favourable about him outside of the government produced history.
Intersesting that someone cited Henry VII and mentioned Roman rule. Yes he dissolved the power of the church in England, but he did this by ruling that God spoke through him. Any decisions of conscience decreed by Henry was a direct instruction from God through him. Also his reforms were particularly heinous - see Robert Aske et al.
Personally I don�t know if I would pick any �favourite� Britons, but I certainly have some level of admiration for Nelson and Charles Dickens, although I am sure that both had elements of their lives that we would find unfavourable today. Ah, if only Julius Caeser were british.....!
Churchill wasn't responsible for Gallipoli - granted, it was his idea, but that doesn't he was responsible for it. It's a lot like the Norway idea, or Italian invasion - he thought it up, and it was flawed in places (for example aiding the Finns in the Norway idea), but it's not fair to place the blame on him for the disaster that ensued.
What's wrong with relying on the war years? Granted, he was by no means perfect (shockingly, he was human), but if it weren't for him, we'd have doubtless surrendered.
As I've said, my feelings toward Thatcher are mixed - but I've tried to select my list without political bias. She has indisputably transformed the face of Britain, and her legacy is one of the most dominant in modern British politics, regardless of the destruction she caused (and damage she also repaired).
What's wrong with relying on the war years? Granted, he was by no means perfect (shockingly, he was human), but if it weren't for him, we'd have doubtless surrendered.
As I've said, my feelings toward Thatcher are mixed - but I've tried to select my list without political bias. She has indisputably transformed the face of Britain, and her legacy is one of the most dominant in modern British politics, regardless of the destruction she caused (and damage she also repaired).
but he also labelled jews as Hebrew bloodsuckers who bought the antagonism upon themselves. Nice.
So, your problem with Churchill is that you don't think he was a very nice person? Well, he wasn't, particularly. But to point that out to override his superb leadership is ludicrous.
I was at school when she took away our milk!
Interestingly, documents released after the 25-year rule of secrecy have revealed that Thatcher actually opposed cutting back on free milk, but had to go with it under Cabinet Collective responsibility.
Also, she was � like Blair � a puppet for US foreign policy and Reagan's gimp (remember Spitting Image?).
She wasn't a 'puppet' at all. She shared the same views as Reagan as a fellow neo-liberal, but that's far from being his 'gimp'.
So, your problem with Churchill is that you don't think he was a very nice person? Well, he wasn't, particularly. But to point that out to override his superb leadership is ludicrous.
I was at school when she took away our milk!
Interestingly, documents released after the 25-year rule of secrecy have revealed that Thatcher actually opposed cutting back on free milk, but had to go with it under Cabinet Collective responsibility.
Also, she was � like Blair � a puppet for US foreign policy and Reagan's gimp (remember Spitting Image?).
She wasn't a 'puppet' at all. She shared the same views as Reagan as a fellow neo-liberal, but that's far from being his 'gimp'.
Churchill may have done great things during the war, but if I printed what my grandfather (an old coal miner) thought about him I'd be banned from the site for life, opions which by the way were shared by many old pit men of his generation. Being of the generation born just after the war,when Churchill was regarded as the "saviour" of Britain, I remember how surprised I was, when on becoming old enough to use the Miners Welfare,I found the mention of Churchill did not bring universal acclaim , but just the reverse with most of the old boys remembering his comments & treatment of the workers (particularly the miners) during the 20's & 30's
What's wrong with relying on the war years is that you're asking about greatness as a quality that someone has and so it's reasonable to expect your candidates to display that greatness through most of their lives and not just a few years.
I think you also have to take reasonable steps to try to seperate the person and what they did from their image.
Which is why your choice of Lloyd George is so interesting as his image is decidedly mixed.
You wouldn't happen to be Welsh would you?
I think you also have to take reasonable steps to try to seperate the person and what they did from their image.
Which is why your choice of Lloyd George is so interesting as his image is decidedly mixed.
You wouldn't happen to be Welsh would you?
I'll reply to your response on Churchill after Lloyd George.
I didn't select Lloyd George for his image or my [1/4] Welsh blood. I selected Lloyd George on the same basis I chose my other candidates - individual achievement and/or skill and/or a prominent legacy. Namely, in his case, for:
Skilful wartime leadership (and throughout his premiership)
Giving the Irish the best settlement he could without committing political suicide (and before anyone pins this on him, the Irish Civil War was going to happen whatever settlement was reached)
First introduction of social welfare programmes
Extending the franchise
Lloyd George had to deal with some of the most tenuous and divisive issues in British political history - such as votes for women and Home Rule (which had brought down even Gladstone on multiple occasions) - and he handled them excellently, and also achieved notable reforms.
I didn't select Lloyd George for his image or my [1/4] Welsh blood. I selected Lloyd George on the same basis I chose my other candidates - individual achievement and/or skill and/or a prominent legacy. Namely, in his case, for:
Skilful wartime leadership (and throughout his premiership)
Giving the Irish the best settlement he could without committing political suicide (and before anyone pins this on him, the Irish Civil War was going to happen whatever settlement was reached)
First introduction of social welfare programmes
Extending the franchise
Lloyd George had to deal with some of the most tenuous and divisive issues in British political history - such as votes for women and Home Rule (which had brought down even Gladstone on multiple occasions) - and he handled them excellently, and also achieved notable reforms.
I'd agree that Lloyd George was a real heavyweight - but he did have a reputation for being the sort of man who's hand you couldn't shake without having to count your fingers after. Especially after he was caught selling peerages for cash.
Still he did make 79 on the BBC poll but then Michael Crawford was 17!
Still he did make 79 on the BBC poll but then Michael Crawford was 17!
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