children of fundalmentalists

[pimlico]

I know this is a sensitive subject! - I was on a bus last week in east London and two women got on - they were fully covered up in black, including long black gloves. This is a common sight round here - the thing was, they had a small child with them, who couldn't have been more than . She (presuming it was a girl!) had her head completely covered, with a a thin fleece and then a black veil over the top, ith only a tiny slit for her to see out of. She was blundering around as she obviously could hardly see. Surely this is child abuse? Wouldn't any child subjected to this grow up with severe psychological problems? I wanted to say something but it is such a sensitive subject and I couldn't think what to say. What does does anyone think?

[Gromit]

The female is only clothed like this while out in public. The majority of the time the mother and child are together, they will beable to to interact without veils. The child will know its own mother.

I am not saying this is desirable or good, I am saying it is not harmful.

[Gromit]

Probably more harmful, will be the indoctrination the child will be subjected to from now on.

[Octavius]

Firstly, using the term 'fundamentalist' for general followers of an intransigent Islamic code of this nature seems rather pejorative.

Secondly, to me it seems no more abusive than having a baby�s ears pierced or dressing them head to toe in Burberry. Would you equally �say something� to someone (i.e. a British person) if they did this to their child?

Perhaps they feel that in Western society, that not only they should protect their dignity from the gazing rampant and lustful eyes of Western men, but also their young daughters who may be equally at risk from certain quarters.

[pimlico]

I take your point about fundamentalists, sorry, I was struggling for a title! But then you followed this up with an insult towards Western men! I don't worry about men gazing lustfully at 3 year olds, but I do worry that a child cannot see properly when it's out. And to bring a child up to believe that sexual feelings are harmful rather than normal isnot very healthy either.

[Octavius]

Er, firstly I am a Western man so I am talking from first hand experience, and I know many who would merrily add a �phwoar�, �ello treacle�, �show us yer buns� etc comment without the blink of an eye. It is often how women of the Islamic faith (or indeed the men) perceive other men to be, and that applies in the east as it does in the west. As we know, men are all the same.

I am not of the persuasion that I would cover my daughter up as that is not my belief system but personally speaking, men gazing lustfully at 3 year olds does concern me.

I don�t believe that the child is being brought up to suppress sexual feelings as you say, since they would most likely be unaware of such emotions. They are merely following the faith and dress code of their mothers and will generally see nothing untoward.

[B00]

Octavius, I really hope that your last paragragh was said with your tongue firmly in your cheek!!

[Octavius]

Sorry B00, its Monday and I am in go-slow. You're gonna have to explain that one.

[pimlico]

I think that a child is well aware that something is odd, when it sees most other children uncovered and yet can barely see itself. As you are a western man (though you seem strangely anti-men - what's that about?) you will have noticed that women make lewd remarks about men as well. Covering women up only makes it more likely that they will be treated like sexual objects. And covering a tiny child up suggest that she is a sexual object too. And in reply to your previous comment, I don't like any nationality of child abuse, - but you can't seriously be comparing ear piercing (silly, vain, whatever) to making a child fearful of showing its face in public.

[Gromit]

There will be a lot of differences that the child will know that it is different from others. Language religion and of course, cultural dress will set it apart. The child's sisters and nieces and aunties will all follow this dress code. The child will follow their example because they are her family and role models, not out of fear.
I see everyday examples of neglected children and poor parenting. Covering a muslim child in cultural dress is not abuse.
A worse case of bad parenting are those who let their 12 year old daughters out dressed like prostitutes.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml? xml=/opinion/2007/06/26/do2603.xml

[Octavius]

I wouldn't describe it as odd, merely different, yet you seem to imply that being different is a crime in itself.

I see nothing that asserts I might be 'anti-men' in any of my posts.

And finally, how does covering yourself up make you "more of a sexual object"? I am bamboozled.

[B00]

Ahhh, you slapped another post in between my reply and the post I was referring to Octavius. I meant this one......

Perhaps they feel that in Western society, that not only they should protect their dignity from the gazing rampant and lustful eyes of Western men, but also their young daughters who may be equally at risk from certain quarters.

[China Doll]

The catholic church as happily been repressing people sexually for years without any need for a uniform so it doesn't seem to me that the clothes are the problem.

[Octavius]

So, China, its other people then..?

B00, perhaps I was lacking in clarity, but I know what I meant!

[China Doll]

The power of suggestion and all that Octavius, some people are more suceptable to it and some don't have the knowledge. Perhaps the HIV epidemic in Africa would have a little less momentum if the use of condoms was viewed in a more positive light by the church.

Or we could go with the no sex before marraige that has led to one or two problems in the past.

Not just other people no, but I think outside influences should be considered.

[naomi24]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with sex, or sexual repression. Muslim women who cover themselves from head to toe are either under instruction from their husbands, or they do it by choice. It is not a requirement of their religion, and since it is completely unnecessary, I wouldn't expect for a moment that all of their acquaintance choose to dress the same way. I wonder if these children will ever be able to fully integrate into the society they've either been brought into, or have been born into? I presume they will have to attend school with children of all races and creeds, so dressing them like this is cruel since it creates an immediate and unnecessary barrier between them and the majority of other children, be they Muslim or not.

Incidentally, pimlico had it right the first time. These parents are not considering the well-being of the child. They are fundamentalists, and their choice of dress, I believe, is designed to say as much about their nationalistic and political loyalties as it says about their religion. Quite simply, they are making a statement.

[Octavius]

So what is wrong with them making that statement - a visual expression of their belief or submissiveness to their husband? We don't have to join them.

Perhaps they do not want their children to integrate into the society they are living in, that is their choice. To say that someone wearing a veil is simply making a nationailistic and political statement is somewhat flippant and rather ill-informed.

My aunt wore a veil for years.

[Octavius]

Ps - if it is not a requirement of their religion, then how are they fundamentalists?

[China Doll]

For this bit I agree with Octavius. I don't think an orthadox jew would be called a fundamentalist. Or indeed the harry barry lot or the JWs.

[naomi24]

I didn't say their form of dress was a statement of their belief or their submissiveness to their husbands. I said I believe they are making a political statement - and I do.

[Gromit]

"dressing them like this is cruel since it creates an immediate and unnecessary barrier between them."

So if they do not wear any cultural identification at school, the other children will not notice they are a different colour, have a funny accent and a funny religion?

It is not cruel. It is not a crime to be different.