I cannot fathom belief in God.

[flobadob]

I claim to be an atheist, however I don't say it to be cool or modern. Since I was a teenager I've felt this way. Basically I can't see how there is some sort of overseeing entity watching over all we do, something that created us and whom we will meet at the end of our lives. Having been raised Catholic I find it hard to totally disregard the thought of a God as those first 13/14 years are very formative to one's persona in life. Perhaps I would even like someone to say something that would help me to accept the belief in God so I could just get on with things like everyone else, but I find no arguments to my beliefs forthcoming. Do you think that anyone can change peoples' views and/or can you change mine.

Can I just say, if anyone wishes to answer this, could they please put forward their thoughts to any points raised as I find generally people who have a belief in God just do so because it is how they have been brought up and if I make points contrary to their beliefs their only comeback is basically "well that's what I believe" and I feel most people don't really think about it, they just accept what they've been told since childhood.

[MarkRae]

Catholicism is without doubt the most indoctrinating of all the branches of Christianity. You have been brain-washed. No doubt you think you're an atheist now but, on your death-bed, I guarantee you'll be screaming for a priest...

[flobadob]

Never. However I cannot deny that I may worry that there is a God. That being said, I feel I've been a good guy so if he sends me to hell for not believing in Him, well then He can go funk Himself.

[naomi24]

Talking to people can change your views. It depends upon how much you want to listen, what your aims are, how willing you are to seriously consider whatever it is you're listening to, and your strength of mind in having the ability to rationalise and to separate truth from fiction. I have heard the arguments from the religious that say:

'I don't know how it happened so God must have dunnit', or

'I am someone special so God loves me', or

'The thought of death terrifies me, so I'll believe in this God and maybe I won't die', or

'I have to believe because if I don't I might go to hell',

......or astonishingly

'It says so in the book so it must be true',

but I have never met with a rational argument for belief in God. I would be interested in hearing one though, so good question, Flobadob. Any offers?

[woofgang]

I wasn't brought up in a religeous household and I do believe that there is a God. I don't go to church, went to Church of England Primary and Grammar schools The primary was the local catchment school if you didn't go to the RC one, the grammar was the best chance of getting a good education, this was 40 odd years ago. I don't think the indoctrination worked because i have clear views about organised religion in that it ain't for me and IMO gets in the way. I don't need teaching, I don't need God's views interpreting to me, I don't need pastoral care.
personally I don't care if anyone else agrees with me or not..have no intention of putting forward arguments rational or otherwise.
I do believe that God sees all and knows all, not sure about the creation bit, deffo not in the Adam's rib sense, don't know what will happen when I die. The rest of my beliefs and experience are personal and private.

[beso]

The really sad thing about religion is that it teaches the real game is after death. Stories of everlasting happiness or 72 virgins teach that we should devote ourselves to satisfying the whim of an arbitrator of our performance in life.

It isn't such a bad concept. Very like the Bhuddists. You get what is coming.

However it goes wrong when intellectually lazy ignoramuses decide that an old book has special inside information on the ultimate truth and we no longer have responsibility for comprehending the basis of our own ethics. It is an irresponsible position and utterly susceptable to corruption.

Far better we embrace conscious of the foundational principles underlying our perspectives on life and contemplate their interactivity.

Simple really. Live for the best of now and forever. When we die we loose the ability to act. Contemplete your afterlife in an exiistance where you have complete knowledge and awarness, total compassion and absolutely no abiltiy to change anything for eternity.

Tell me that this is not a better outlook on life than choosing to be guided by an oligarchy who justify their authority on their advanced ability to comprehend the obtuse "Word of God" found in an old book.

[KARL]

Although I have, since a child, never knowingly been hugely influenced by others (a cautious nature, perhaps) I am aware that I am attracted to people who challenge my perceptions and/or stretch my horizons. Thus, those whose friendship I enjoy and value most are people with whom I regularly disagree to a greater or lesser extent on individual topics - but we are never otherwise at odds overall. This may sound something of a contradiction but it is nevertheless true. Thus, on the subject of religion, I know several people who are firmly religious in the conventional sense (adhere to a prescribed doctrine, including the rituals, the unsupported "facts", etc.) but I hugely respect them because they are good to me and I do my best to reciprocate and we remain good friends in spite of declared differences of opinion - they clearly judge me as at least not a bad person. I also know religious people who detest me because I have not succumbed to their attempts to convince me - I suspect this is because they have no viable counter to my questions and doubts beyond saying "everybody knows", "it is written" or whatever - it is not unusual to find these people see existence in black and white terms and are inclined toward intolerance. The most difficult part about not believing in religious explanations and doctrines is the unknown. Such people have lots of questions and no answers, mainly because it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a god (or more than one) whereas meek acceptance leads to a peaceful life unless/until something awakens a question.

[KARL]

My main difficulty with so many religious people is that I find the absence in them of objective scrutiny/criticism of the official dogma an insult to their own intelligence - and it is almost always down to what I see as poor (limited and limiting) upbringing. I think perhaps the majority of those religious people I have met have exhibited a tribal instinct and stance toward "their own" and "others".

[milliezoe]

I have just returned from church and find some of the views expressed on this thread amazing I am a practicing catholic and find the rage against the pope etc repulsive I am not a supporter of the pope at present because of his past but that does not shake my belief in my faith we cannot change what has happened in the past but we can learn from it
flobadob all I can say to you is go with your instincts go and speak with a priest and tell him how you feel and your concerns he will not judge you.
Personally I will remember you in my prayers that you will find peace god bless you

[beso]

What I am alluding to is for us to base our actions on the princilple of "living with ourselves" for an etrninty in an expreince where we become part of an omniscient universal spirit.

Feel the feeings of those we have interacted in our life. For an enternity. The only rational way to lead a life in wiht this sense of existence is to maximise the good.

This is what the stories attributed to Jesus were about. Love and the maximisation of god. Unfortunately our society has not been able to abandon the doctine of the books and accept the challenge digesting of the "Fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil",

To abrogate of resopnsibity for our decisions is a travesty. Accepting the Torah, the Bible or the Koran is tantamount of philosophically adopting the Nurmberg defence. Religion encourages us act on instruction by authority without consciousness in the comfort of automatic exoneration by subscription.

Tragically so many of us are wiling to sacrifice real conscousness for the ease of a prescribed morality written thousands of years ago.

[beso]

@ millizoe

The oligarchy of curch teaches that we can trust them because of their their superior connection to God. Yet they have clearly demonstrated profound moral failings. We cannot rust them with our sense of morlity.

Incredibly they remain recalcitrant and dismiss the criticisms of the church as an unfair attack. Just like you do. They have indoctinated you to believe church must not be criticised. This belief lies at the root of everything that is wrong with humanity.

These exalted personas do not have the capacity for greater understanding of spirit. They have less!! Their worlds are tied up in the upholding of their own position in the heirarchy. An ordinary person like you has infinitely more spiritual capacity.

[beso]

.....the absence in them of objective scrutiny/criticism of the official dogma

Exactly KARL.

Any philosophy that teaches avoidance of analysis and criticism of the doctine is doomed to self serving ignorance that can only be manifested as bigotry and prejudice. This philosophathy (meaning: pathalogical philosophy) is faithfully manifested in the holy books of the Abrahamic traditions.

The inertia of the doctrine has crippled humanity for too long. Unfortunately the religious apolgists are the front line defence of that docrine. They allow the curch to avoid being confonted by the reality of their bigotry by fielding the questions asked by the rationalists.

Even more unfortunately the apologists ineveitably turn the discussion to one of tolerance and respect rather than deal with the insideous philosophy promoted by the holy texts. It is not only unproductive but philosophically dishonst.

[woofgang]

oh well said Beso...if God didn't intend us to think critically and independently, then why did She give us the power to do so?

[naomi24]

//Even more unfortunately the apologists ineveitably turn the discussion to one of tolerance and respect rather than deal with the insideous philosophy promoted by the holy texts. It is not only unproductive but philosophically dishonst. //

Very well said Beso. I couldn't agree more.

[jake-the-peg]

Firstly you have to understand that although from the sounds of it you and I share a rationalistic view of examining whether or not something is credible before deciding wheter or not to believe it, that is not the case for many believers.

They look first at what they get out of their religion, a sense of community, ethical framework, support etc. etc. They rarely stop and actually examine the beliefs that they are expected to hold and even if they do they'll mostly conclude "who knows for sure"

People normally change religious stance in face of an emotional not a rational decision. Something changes in the relationship and they no longer get the "warm and cuddlies" that their religion used to give them.

Personally my athiesm has nothing to do with the existance or otherwise of God. If you reject Catholicism you are simply left looking at all the others

To my mind the notion of religion spins around the notion of an immortal soul.

When I look at the dreadful damage that brain trauma does I cannot accept that the conciousness can survive life in all cases - so how can it survive death.

If you reject the soul - you reject all religions it is at the heart of all of them

[wildwood]

I can not understand howthen anyone can still believe in this ecclesiastical claptrap when innocent babies are born with diseases, malformations and doomed to a life of misery when a murderer/rapist only has to ask for forgiveness and goes to heaven.
Funny how the good things in life are God's gift. So what has an unborn baby that dies with the cord around its neck or other fatal birth mishap done to upset his lordship?

[flobadob]

The problem with posting a question like this one is I find almost everyone who responds to it is of a like mind to my own. I really would like someone who is religious to come forth with some views. Pretty much milliezoe is the only person who came forward to put forward a differing opinion.

A few people have made the point of people just accepting things and I appreciate that, but I can't understand that billions of people feel this way. As I say I cannot fathom it.

[mibn2cweus]

Perhaps you should not look for reasons from those who have abandoned their own in an attempt to escape the realisation of their own inescapable personal responsibility.

[flobadob]

I'm looking for everyone's opinion, they all count you will find mib. As I say I'm only getting views of those with a non religious view. I suppose I'm barking up the wrong tree, as I pointed out in the original question, what else can religious people say bar "Well that's what I believe". Ah well, I suppose I may draw a line through this one. As expected.