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Work Laws For Children Visiting The Uk.
23 Answers
I'm approaching this somewhat delicately, only because I don't wish to cause any negative opinions regarding a specific charity. But I'd be most grateful for some guidance.
I volunteer a day a week at one of the High Street shops of a national charity. When I first began I think I had different views of how my meagre contribution of volunteer time might benefit. It has been an eye-opening experience! The place is a mess. it's all about generating money and pushing some of the fragile souls who are there to do far more than their capability.
A few weeks ago I arrived on my designated day to discover there was a child - a sixteen-year-old-girl from France, who was there as a "placement" from an International student scheme.
She's incapable of speaking a complete sentence in English and to my horror, the 'manager' told me how frustrated she was with the child as during the previous four days she had been there, she hadn't done a thing and it was impossible to communicate with her. The manager told me that I would need to speak with her "in French" to explain what she should be doing.
You can't imagine the look of relief on the poor girl's face when I introduced myself in French and said "Je pense que vous avez eu du mal avec cette dame. Oui?." ( I think you've had a difficult time with this lady? Yes?). The poor girl launched into a diatribe that was hard for me to keep up with.
To my sadness, for the four days she had been working there, the manager had her upstairs in an unheated, windowless, room, sorting through bags of donated 'things' (often little more than soiled knickers and bacterial suspicious toys that no one would wish upon a child regardless of how poor they may be.)
But more shocking to me was that the girl said she is required by the student sponsor group to be there from 0900-1730 five days a week!
Sorry to be so verbose, but here's my question... As the child is only sixteen, don't our laws prohibit a sixteen year-old from working 8 hours a day, five days a week, without remuneration? I phoned an educator friend of mine to ask. She said it was against the law to have her work that many hours. When I gently queried the manager, her curt reply was "the laws are different in France! And besides, it's none of your business."
I'm both heart-broken and frustrated for the child. She only has a few more weeks here. But I'd hate for her to return to France with such a negative impression of Britain, and possibly a Staph infection, or two.
As far as the Charity is concerned, the venue violates virtually every Health and Safety law in our country. No hot water to wash hands, no fire exits either marked or present, no heating where staff or volunteers work, and as best I can see, no government notices, licenses, etc., anywhere in the building. If it's not the cockroach traps all over the 'sorting' room, or the rat traps and the admonishment that I should not grab piles of clothes from the floor too quickly as that's where many of the rats nest. (any clothes placed on hangers, sized and, set out for sale to the public sit in a heap on the floor amongst the rat and cockroach traps before being prepared. It's ghastly!
But for now, may concern is for the child. Is this right what they're doing? It seems to me that both the charity and the Sponsoring group are equally culpable.
Grateful for any advice.
Ollie+
I volunteer a day a week at one of the High Street shops of a national charity. When I first began I think I had different views of how my meagre contribution of volunteer time might benefit. It has been an eye-opening experience! The place is a mess. it's all about generating money and pushing some of the fragile souls who are there to do far more than their capability.
A few weeks ago I arrived on my designated day to discover there was a child - a sixteen-year-old-girl from France, who was there as a "placement" from an International student scheme.
She's incapable of speaking a complete sentence in English and to my horror, the 'manager' told me how frustrated she was with the child as during the previous four days she had been there, she hadn't done a thing and it was impossible to communicate with her. The manager told me that I would need to speak with her "in French" to explain what she should be doing.
You can't imagine the look of relief on the poor girl's face when I introduced myself in French and said "Je pense que vous avez eu du mal avec cette dame. Oui?." ( I think you've had a difficult time with this lady? Yes?). The poor girl launched into a diatribe that was hard for me to keep up with.
To my sadness, for the four days she had been working there, the manager had her upstairs in an unheated, windowless, room, sorting through bags of donated 'things' (often little more than soiled knickers and bacterial suspicious toys that no one would wish upon a child regardless of how poor they may be.)
But more shocking to me was that the girl said she is required by the student sponsor group to be there from 0900-1730 five days a week!
Sorry to be so verbose, but here's my question... As the child is only sixteen, don't our laws prohibit a sixteen year-old from working 8 hours a day, five days a week, without remuneration? I phoned an educator friend of mine to ask. She said it was against the law to have her work that many hours. When I gently queried the manager, her curt reply was "the laws are different in France! And besides, it's none of your business."
I'm both heart-broken and frustrated for the child. She only has a few more weeks here. But I'd hate for her to return to France with such a negative impression of Britain, and possibly a Staph infection, or two.
As far as the Charity is concerned, the venue violates virtually every Health and Safety law in our country. No hot water to wash hands, no fire exits either marked or present, no heating where staff or volunteers work, and as best I can see, no government notices, licenses, etc., anywhere in the building. If it's not the cockroach traps all over the 'sorting' room, or the rat traps and the admonishment that I should not grab piles of clothes from the floor too quickly as that's where many of the rats nest. (any clothes placed on hangers, sized and, set out for sale to the public sit in a heap on the floor amongst the rat and cockroach traps before being prepared. It's ghastly!
But for now, may concern is for the child. Is this right what they're doing? It seems to me that both the charity and the Sponsoring group are equally culpable.
Grateful for any advice.
Ollie+
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Regarding the child, I would be speaking to social services. Regarding the shop in general, I would be speaking to local trading standards.
CAB say a 16 yo can work those hours but that's paid employment...maybe talk to CAB?
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CAB say a 16 yo can work those hours but that's paid employment...maybe talk to CAB?
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Contact the organisation that sent her and sent her and explain the work situation is so poor it is illegal and get them to urgently find another placement. Also contact the headquarters of the charity and tell them that the shop is so bad it breaches health and safety regulations, also mention that the manager is incompetent to the point of being a danger to workers.
Thank you everyone! You've helped tremendously. I've just spoken with Trading Standards and they have a 'senior' phoning back later in the day. I've tried several times to speak with CAB, but clearly their lines are loaded with other callers. However, I Shall persevere.
Yes, I will be leaving this charity. I felt a commitment due to someone who did benefit from their greater cause. It's the 'retailing' aspect that I find so appalling. Clearly to me, it is fully divested from the charity's ethos and purpose.
Gossip is that they've been through 4 managers so far this year. The current 'manager du jour' has no retailing experience I'm told. She was an accountant for a church organisation.
At the end of the day yesterday, in speaking with the child, she actually welled up with tears saying how exasperated she was, especially as there will be no-one to speak with until I come next week. I intend to 'stop by' just to check on her... I feel quite helpless.
Also, I want to find out more about this placement group. On their website they clearly advertise to businesses asking whether they need people to work in their shops. I gather this is how this child was placed. I know three of the other people in the shop, who only work a maximum of four hours a day, were placed through a joint venture between Social Services and the Charity. They are vulnerable individuals. They're lovely people and quite sweet and gentle to the point of being timid. But it baffles me that the same consideration or compassion is not being extended to this child. I asked her if she'd like for me to speak with her parents, who live in Normandy. She says it was them who wanted her to have the experience....but somehow I seriously doubt this is what her parents envisaged for the child. Mon Dieu!
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR ADVICE AND DIRECTION! Your overall answers and advice have helped greatly.
Ollie+
Yes, I will be leaving this charity. I felt a commitment due to someone who did benefit from their greater cause. It's the 'retailing' aspect that I find so appalling. Clearly to me, it is fully divested from the charity's ethos and purpose.
Gossip is that they've been through 4 managers so far this year. The current 'manager du jour' has no retailing experience I'm told. She was an accountant for a church organisation.
At the end of the day yesterday, in speaking with the child, she actually welled up with tears saying how exasperated she was, especially as there will be no-one to speak with until I come next week. I intend to 'stop by' just to check on her... I feel quite helpless.
Also, I want to find out more about this placement group. On their website they clearly advertise to businesses asking whether they need people to work in their shops. I gather this is how this child was placed. I know three of the other people in the shop, who only work a maximum of four hours a day, were placed through a joint venture between Social Services and the Charity. They are vulnerable individuals. They're lovely people and quite sweet and gentle to the point of being timid. But it baffles me that the same consideration or compassion is not being extended to this child. I asked her if she'd like for me to speak with her parents, who live in Normandy. She says it was them who wanted her to have the experience....but somehow I seriously doubt this is what her parents envisaged for the child. Mon Dieu!
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR ADVICE AND DIRECTION! Your overall answers and advice have helped greatly.
Ollie+
Just a 'ps' everyone: I've just looked at the website for the placement agency in France. They are advertising several 'opportunities' (their words), offering students 'placements' in numerous venues here in the UK. One is a hotel. The advert clearly says the student will work 36 hours a week, however, it states there is NO remuneration. They will receive 'accommodation' for their work. Whilst I also think this stinks as far as a lure for young people, I recognise the accommodation has some value. But still, the age issue disturbs me greatly. I understand the child I've alluded to is clearly on the 'cusp' age wise. But still, I've always believed our laws are quite succinct when it comes to child labour.
Oh well...who knows...
Ollie+
Oh well...who knows...
Ollie+
Again, thank you everyone. hc4361 - this was he purpose of my writing today. I had no idea what the law is relating to a 16 year-old and work. And whilst I appreciate your answer, I somehow think the law is indeed different when it comes to that age, when the individual is a student. However, as I say...I'm wholly ignorant to the law in this matter. It was the Educator, whom I trust implicitly, who told me, without question, it's illegal for the girl to work that many hours - whether paid or unpaid.
Regardless, it doesn't even address the purpose for the child's placement. She and her parents were led to believe this organisation would be providing her with an 'opportunity' to learn English and interact with more of her peers. CRIKEY! The average age of the people who work/volunteer in the shop is...well...deceased! I'm the youngest volunteer and I'm brushing the 60 mark! I just find it so sad... I've received two text messages from the child today asking me how to say she needs to go to a chemist....and later, that she's not feeling well. I've phoned the shop and expressed this...but I'm not sure how my 'sticking my nose in' will help matters... although, when I'm there, the 'manager' constantly is telling me to translate what she's saying to the child. Between you and I, recognising how fragile the girl seems, I've been trying to insert some humour in my translation, along the lines of saying "the woman is apologising for her bad personality as she's suffering from severe haemorrhoids."
Yes, to read such things as these can make anyone guarded about these retail charity shops. I trust others are not like this.....Lordy, at least I hope they're not!
Ollie+
Regardless, it doesn't even address the purpose for the child's placement. She and her parents were led to believe this organisation would be providing her with an 'opportunity' to learn English and interact with more of her peers. CRIKEY! The average age of the people who work/volunteer in the shop is...well...deceased! I'm the youngest volunteer and I'm brushing the 60 mark! I just find it so sad... I've received two text messages from the child today asking me how to say she needs to go to a chemist....and later, that she's not feeling well. I've phoned the shop and expressed this...but I'm not sure how my 'sticking my nose in' will help matters... although, when I'm there, the 'manager' constantly is telling me to translate what she's saying to the child. Between you and I, recognising how fragile the girl seems, I've been trying to insert some humour in my translation, along the lines of saying "the woman is apologising for her bad personality as she's suffering from severe haemorrhoids."
Yes, to read such things as these can make anyone guarded about these retail charity shops. I trust others are not like this.....Lordy, at least I hope they're not!
Ollie+
Just noticed you say there are no fire exits! Get hold of the local fire station and report it. They will be VERY concerned and almost certainly send an officer to investigate. No fire exits is a very serious health and safety issue. The fire brigade can and will close the shop down unless there is an immediate improvement. If it is as serious as you say they can close it instantly.
Ollie
"If you are over school leaving age (see under heading General rules on employment) and under 18, the law says that you must not work more than eight hours a day, or more than 40 hours a week. You must have twelve hours' rest between each working day, and 48 hours' rest per working week. You are also entitled to a 30-minute rest break when you work for longer than four and a half hours."
https:/
"If you are over school leaving age (see under heading General rules on employment) and under 18, the law says that you must not work more than eight hours a day, or more than 40 hours a week. You must have twelve hours' rest between each working day, and 48 hours' rest per working week. You are also entitled to a 30-minute rest break when you work for longer than four and a half hours."
https:/
We have interns, sometimes international ones, in one of the companies I'm part of, and technically they are unpaid and work full time, however we give them £10 for breakfast and £10 for lunch because we feel it's entirely unacceptable for people to work for nothing which amounts to £100 per week and make us feel much better, I couldn't countenance people working for nothing and I'd seriously question the ethos of any 'charity' which does so. So many excellent suggestions about H&S, Fire Officers etc, but just wanted to say I would contact her parent if i were you as this won't be what they anticipated I don't imagine.
Again, thank you everyone! hc4361 - that was valuable and settles that aspect of my concern. However, I wholly agree with kvalidir that it is most appropriate to give even a basic subsistence ...
I've now heard from trading Standards ...the man who phoned told me he's already "very familiar" with the shop. And he's both disappointed and concerned that they have failed to follow through on their previous write-up. He is planning to visit their immediately.
Whilst I've not yet spoken with Social Services, I think that option is moot, thanks to the help of info from hc4361. In reading the requirements, some of it is quite vague and is open to interpretation - especially in light of being in a hazardous environment. That, I confess, irks me to no end!
And my last little surprise came as I continued to peruse the student organisation's web site.. these kids actually have to pay money to be part of the scheme. Personally, I don't feel the child has received value for money, or in a more legalise aspect, 'services for which contracted were not provided.' But I'm an idiot when it comes to the law.
Regardless of all of this, I feel strongly that all I've shared is wrong at every level. I do plan to phone the charity but intend to wait until next week. As for our local media....as so many of us find them to be incompetent, it may open a can of worms unintended....and I do not wish to impact, in any way, the actual good that the larger charity provides. For all I know it could be a regional problem where the failure has rested with supervisory teams or mid-management... I am not a judge...but I'm sure it will all reveal itself in time.
Everyone, i feel we've all successfully chewed on this rather well. Thank you for the help and direction. I knew exactly where to go for advice....it was Answerbank!
Cheers!
Ollie+
I've now heard from trading Standards ...the man who phoned told me he's already "very familiar" with the shop. And he's both disappointed and concerned that they have failed to follow through on their previous write-up. He is planning to visit their immediately.
Whilst I've not yet spoken with Social Services, I think that option is moot, thanks to the help of info from hc4361. In reading the requirements, some of it is quite vague and is open to interpretation - especially in light of being in a hazardous environment. That, I confess, irks me to no end!
And my last little surprise came as I continued to peruse the student organisation's web site.. these kids actually have to pay money to be part of the scheme. Personally, I don't feel the child has received value for money, or in a more legalise aspect, 'services for which contracted were not provided.' But I'm an idiot when it comes to the law.
Regardless of all of this, I feel strongly that all I've shared is wrong at every level. I do plan to phone the charity but intend to wait until next week. As for our local media....as so many of us find them to be incompetent, it may open a can of worms unintended....and I do not wish to impact, in any way, the actual good that the larger charity provides. For all I know it could be a regional problem where the failure has rested with supervisory teams or mid-management... I am not a judge...but I'm sure it will all reveal itself in time.
Everyone, i feel we've all successfully chewed on this rather well. Thank you for the help and direction. I knew exactly where to go for advice....it was Answerbank!
Cheers!
Ollie+
For many years I was responsible for Work Experience in my secondary school, and still ( at an advanced age) vet placements for their suitability. The hours you mention are not illegal in this country but from your description this placement should never have been approved.
Firstly, someone MUST have paid a visit to check out the working conditions, legal insurance requirements, Safeguarding issues, job description,Health & Safety, supervision etc, etc. This would be done by someone from the local education authority in liason with the student's school in France. Also, arrangements would have been made for supervisory visits to take place, usually one a week and the student would have some sort of log book containing full contact details. Something's not right here.
Firstly, someone MUST have paid a visit to check out the working conditions, legal insurance requirements, Safeguarding issues, job description,Health & Safety, supervision etc, etc. This would be done by someone from the local education authority in liason with the student's school in France. Also, arrangements would have been made for supervisory visits to take place, usually one a week and the student would have some sort of log book containing full contact details. Something's not right here.
Nobody yet seems to have mentioned the analogy between the placements mentioned by Ollie and work experience placements which the vast majority of (typically) 15-year-old school students undertake anyway. Such placements require the students to work unpaid from Monday to Friday, during whatever hours the regular staff do, usually for two or three weeks. The vast majority of students, parents and teachers see such placements as highly beneficial to the youngsters' development.
As someone who has had to seek out such placements, and then visit the students who've been carrying them out, I know just how hard it is to find employers who'll offer those placements and the rough working conditions which many students then often have to endure.
Many schools welcome the offers of charity shops to take on work experience students because they'll often take on youngsters who're it's hard to place elsewhere. So certainly I won't rush to condemn charities for offering unpaid work to young people. Maybe the specific charity referred to needs to look a little closer at the conditions that it provides for staff and volunteers (most of whom who probably won't stay long anyway by the sound of it) but that doesn't mean that young people undertaking placements for school work experience or international exchange groups shouldn't be taken on by charity shops in general.
As someone who has had to seek out such placements, and then visit the students who've been carrying them out, I know just how hard it is to find employers who'll offer those placements and the rough working conditions which many students then often have to endure.
Many schools welcome the offers of charity shops to take on work experience students because they'll often take on youngsters who're it's hard to place elsewhere. So certainly I won't rush to condemn charities for offering unpaid work to young people. Maybe the specific charity referred to needs to look a little closer at the conditions that it provides for staff and volunteers (most of whom who probably won't stay long anyway by the sound of it) but that doesn't mean that young people undertaking placements for school work experience or international exchange groups shouldn't be taken on by charity shops in general.
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