Ken Livingstone - Please Can Someone Explain

[hellywelly4]

I don't understand this anti Semitic furore and wonder if someone could really explain it in words of one syllable for me. Nothing nasty, please, just the basics.

[DTCwordfan]

when a muslim MP advocates shipping (her words being transporting) all the Jews out of Israel and placing them in the centre of America so that the area can revert to beiong Palestinian-Muslims, I think you have an issue about being anti-Semitic. Ken Livingstone, fool and Muslim supporter that he is, waded into defend her......and rightly has been caught in the crossfire. NUMPTIES, the pair of them, and there's suggestion that Diane Abbott is running to the Chilterns to distance herself.

Corby's mates of course, all three of them.

There we are.

[hellywelly4]

What's the thing about Hitler and Zionism? I really don't understand it at all, and I don't think I'm thick!

[DTCwordfan]

Hitler gassed the Jews, never mind a myriad of other techniques and torture. Israel was created in part out of his deplorable mayhem and sited where they wanted to be, the ancestry of Judaism - and that cut across the other indigenous population

[DTCwordfan]

there's also out there a question of accepting Judaism, the religion and one of the three Abrahamic religions that recognise God (Christians/Orthodox and then Muslims) - and those who are hell-bent on getting the residential Jews in Israel out of the country - and that is Zionism.

Simple version.

[hellywelly4]

I know you're trying to be helpful DTC, but you're still too complicated! I know all about the war and what Hitler did, it was unforgivable and terrifying, it's the Zionism word that I hadn't come across before. I've looked it up but I'm afraid it's beyond me. I'm Church of England, totally non-racist, with no prejudices (hopefully), and can't understand why what KL said has caused such a crisis.

[jno]

ionism is the policy of having a homeland for Jews. For centuries (in fact, millennia) before Israel was created, they always wanted to go back there, but it was occupied by others. After ww2 the Allies handed it over to them, though unfortunately the other people were still there.

Anti-Zionism is thinking that Israel shouldn't exist because it's been the biggest flashpoint for war and terror for 60 years or more.

Anti-Semitism is disliking Jews: Hitler was the extreme example but there's still plenty around.

Livingstone was right, I believe: there is a very powerful Israel lobby (not a Jewish lobby: many of its members aren't Jews) and it seeks to crush criticism of Israel, sometimes by suggesting that those who make it must be anti-Semites - like Hitler.

[jourdain2]

hellywelly - anti-Semetism was what led to the gas chambers in Nazi Germany's concentration camps. 6 MILLION Jews were exterminated. It is the perfect example of unrivalled state power being used against one section of the populace. For reasons that this happened, you need to go into historic detail, Hitler's background etc..

Muslims, in general (in general OK) do not like Jews (again this needs history, but the Palestine situation is today's example). I have been told that by many pupils. Labour has an increasing number of Muslim voters and MPs. Does that help?

[hellywelly4]

I know all about the war and what Hitler did. I'm 75! It's the phrase that Hitler supported Zionism (or very similar). Isn't that a good thing? No, I know fundamentally that it's not, but should KL have been called a/Semitic for saying it? Incidentally I couldn't put on paper my opinion of KL so I'm not in any way supporting him. I think I'm digging myself a hole here!

[New Judge]

"...and there's suggestion that Diane Abbott is running to the Chilterns to distance herself."

You don't mean she's applying for the Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds, do you DT?

[ToraToraTora]

early on Hitler did support zionism, and the forced movement of jews to the chosen place. It was later the final solution came about. It is true that being anti zionist is separate from being anti Semitic but the border between them is blurred more than many on here and in the Labour party would have you believe.

[Peter Pedant]

Ys I thought that NJ

Zionism if you wish is supporting a home land for the Jews ( and is Israel ) and KL said that Hitler was Zionist in the thirties that is he (AH) supported a homeland for the Jews and actually I think KL was wrong
( but I am not prepared to read Mein Kampf to find out )

But there is a lot of labelling going on

as soon as one says I dont think Israel should bomb the crap out of the Palestinians, someone is gonna shout "Racist!" and another "Anti-semite!"

[Peter Pedant]

Oh for about 48 h there was a German plan to deport all the jews in the third reich to Madagascar but the whole idea disappeared quick - and became a small footnote in history

and I dont think that was what KL was referring to

[EDDIE51]

Oxford dictionary definition of 'Zionism' here
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/zionism
Basically it is the movement that demands the establishment of a 'Jewish Homeland'. Which was finally granted by the founding of Israel after WW2.
It is a separate concept from Judaism or the Jewish religion.
Israel was not the only place considered for the 'Jewish Homeland' there was a serious attempt to establish it in Uganda !

[DTCwordfan]

I hope not NJ.....in the middle of Middle England...the mind boggles.

[DTCwordfan]

Eddie, as I understand it Patagonia was an option - but imagine a hardcore Jewish person living alongside an ex-Welsh sheep farmer....how many swear words can be made from that railway station with 58 letters in its name?

[EDDIE51]

The Uganda scheme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme
This was one of the first 'Zionist' proposals !

[EDDIE51]

DTC ,yes that was another option, along with other places in South America.

[Togo]

I don't think that the Palestinians should be lobbing shells, and sue he side bombers, into Israel. But helz bollahks what do I know?

[EDDIE51]

With hindsight, The Falklands would have been a great place to establish the Jewish homeland, the Argies would never have tried to invade them!

[DTCwordfan]

It's a shame that penguins weren't on the Ark, if they were it was in biscuit form - I liked the green ones - what about you?