Technology14 mins ago
Skilled Surgery 31,000 Years Ago
A skeleton discovered in a cave in Indonesia has turned out to be evidence of the earliest known surgical amputation, pre-dating other discoveries of complex medical procedures across Eurasia by tens of thousands of years.
Prior to this discovery, Dr Tim Maloney, a research fellow at Australia’s Griffith University, said it had been widely accepted that amputation was a guaranteed death sentence until about 10,000 years ago, when surgical procedures advanced with the development of large settled agricultural societies.
He said the successful operation suggested some form of intensive care, including regular disinfection post-operation and this implies that early people had mastered complex surgical procedures. The nature of the healing, including the clean stump showed it was caused by amputation and not an accident or animal attack.
The patient survived not just as a child, but as an adult amputee in this rainforest environment and importantly, not only does the stump lack infection, but it also lacks distinctive crushing.
“This finding very much changes the known history of medical intervention and knowledge of humanity,” Maloney said….. "the stone age surgeon must have had detailed knowledge of anatomy, including veins, vessels and nerves, to avoid causing fatal blood loss and infection".
https:/
How? My thinking on the potential presence of ancient aliens on Earth in the dim and distant past is rearing its head again. Any thoughts?
Prior to this discovery, Dr Tim Maloney, a research fellow at Australia’s Griffith University, said it had been widely accepted that amputation was a guaranteed death sentence until about 10,000 years ago, when surgical procedures advanced with the development of large settled agricultural societies.
He said the successful operation suggested some form of intensive care, including regular disinfection post-operation and this implies that early people had mastered complex surgical procedures. The nature of the healing, including the clean stump showed it was caused by amputation and not an accident or animal attack.
The patient survived not just as a child, but as an adult amputee in this rainforest environment and importantly, not only does the stump lack infection, but it also lacks distinctive crushing.
“This finding very much changes the known history of medical intervention and knowledge of humanity,” Maloney said….. "the stone age surgeon must have had detailed knowledge of anatomy, including veins, vessels and nerves, to avoid causing fatal blood loss and infection".
https:/
How? My thinking on the potential presence of ancient aliens on Earth in the dim and distant past is rearing its head again. Any thoughts?
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I have to say, though, I love the fact that a single throwaway sentence that you in fact misinterpreted is enough to have "exhausted the mundane". Even if you'd read what I'd said correctly, wouldn't it have been simply more likely that, being not at all a medical expert, I lack sufficient imagination?
The thing to remember about trepanning, too, is that it's a procedure that was carried out for likely thousands of years. No matter how "extremely dangerous" it is, that gives a lot of time for people to refine the technique, learn about aftercare, and so on, and gradually improve prospects of survival. The same is likely true of amputation -- the first crude attempts end up in failures, but necessity forces people to keep trying, and learn more about how to try and control blood flow, and so on.
In other words, trial and error. It would be extremely interesting to know if that process could be tracked through the ages.
The thing to remember about trepanning, too, is that it's a procedure that was carried out for likely thousands of years. No matter how "extremely dangerous" it is, that gives a lot of time for people to refine the technique, learn about aftercare, and so on, and gradually improve prospects of survival. The same is likely true of amputation -- the first crude attempts end up in failures, but necessity forces people to keep trying, and learn more about how to try and control blood flow, and so on.
In other words, trial and error. It would be extremely interesting to know if that process could be tracked through the ages.
I'm sure I read what you said correctly, Jim, but it's not unlike you to claim that I haven't. I really don't think this discussion will progress so I'll add this curiosity to the rest … the megalithic structures, the models and images of what for all the world look like modern modes of transport, the accounts of flights in heavier than air vehicles, the knowledge of stars invisible to the human eye, the descriptions of the extremes of temperature in space … and so on …. and content myself with that for now.
I'm equally sure that, as the writer, I am more likely to know what I said and what I meant by it than you did.
Some, most, or all of what you've hinted at can be resolved by being more careful about interpreting what you're seeing, each of which would no doubt be worth discussing in turn to clarify what's going on. For example, are those really "images [of] modern modes of transport", or is your familiarity with such vehicles causing you to see them when they aren't there nor were ever intended to be?
Still, if you want to drop a list of things and then leave, that's your prerogative.
I personally find it weird that you seem, in effect, determined to do our ancestors so little credit. In this case, for example, is it really so much of a stretch that they could have worked out how to do such an operation as this? Even with primitive tools, if they felt a need then perseverance, possibly over generations, would eventually get them to at least the occasional success.
None of this rules out definitively the extraordinary, nor can it. But, likewise, the mundane is both the best place to start, and overwhelmingly the more likely, and we certainly haven't ruled that out either.
Some, most, or all of what you've hinted at can be resolved by being more careful about interpreting what you're seeing, each of which would no doubt be worth discussing in turn to clarify what's going on. For example, are those really "images [of] modern modes of transport", or is your familiarity with such vehicles causing you to see them when they aren't there nor were ever intended to be?
Still, if you want to drop a list of things and then leave, that's your prerogative.
I personally find it weird that you seem, in effect, determined to do our ancestors so little credit. In this case, for example, is it really so much of a stretch that they could have worked out how to do such an operation as this? Even with primitive tools, if they felt a need then perseverance, possibly over generations, would eventually get them to at least the occasional success.
None of this rules out definitively the extraordinary, nor can it. But, likewise, the mundane is both the best place to start, and overwhelmingly the more likely, and we certainly haven't ruled that out either.
And, I should add, pursuing the mundane, as far as it will go, is also far more likely to be fruitful. Ask the easy questions first. This discovery, as I said, creates a 20,000-year gap in medical progress that is clearly worthy of further investigation, and clearly also implies that the history of medicine goes back further still. How much further back does it go? Can we perhaps learn something about the likely aftercare? Washing, herbal remedies, bandages...
Sadly, I suspect most of this will inevitably remain a mystery. With (likely) no written records, and with anything related to after-treatment likely to have long-since rotted away, there will be parts of the likely treatment regime that we can only guess at. Or perhaps that's a happy event, because that means we'll always have more to learn, and more to imagine.
What's boring, or stifling, about that?
Sadly, I suspect most of this will inevitably remain a mystery. With (likely) no written records, and with anything related to after-treatment likely to have long-since rotted away, there will be parts of the likely treatment regime that we can only guess at. Or perhaps that's a happy event, because that means we'll always have more to learn, and more to imagine.
What's boring, or stifling, about that?
In this particular case, what I think I said and what I actually said are exactly the same, so you're just plain wrong; but, even if not, then a simple correction or clarification should suffice: any "surgery" that involves causing an injury is clearly extremely dangerous, but is not necessarily fatal. Whether that's down to luck or skill is another matter, but all that is relevant is that I said the first (" extremely dangerous"), but not the second ("necessarily fatal"). It seems that you're somehow equating the two if you think that I was stymieing any argument.
Wouldn't a particularly sharp axe, swung with sufficient force, also do the job, vulcan? A saw is clearly helpful, but hardly seems necessary. It still comes down to the same point, which is that this was certainly not the first time that someone *tried* to amputate a limb. We can infer multiple attempts, many of which will have failed, before the first success, whenever that was.
Wouldn't a particularly sharp axe, swung with sufficient force, also do the job, vulcan? A saw is clearly helpful, but hardly seems necessary. It still comes down to the same point, which is that this was certainly not the first time that someone *tried* to amputate a limb. We can infer multiple attempts, many of which will have failed, before the first success, whenever that was.
https:/
On 20 April 1964, while serving as a Captain, he was attached to the 1/7 Gurkha Regiment as the Regimental Medical Officer in Sarawak when the helicopter he was travelling in suffered engine failure, crushing the arm of Major Eric Smith (Army officer), always known as "Birdie" Smith.[2] He amputated Smith's right arm without morphia, and stayed with Smith until they were evacuated by helicopter to Simmanggang. Despite complete exhaustion, he helped with surgery at Simmanggang and at Kuching. Crawford had already assisted six Gurkha soldiers to escape from the wreckage of the helicopter, there was a great danger of the remnants of the helicopter going up in flames, before he found Smith badly injured, trapped in the wreckage, and saved his life.
Pat was a big mate of mine who kept in contact with me until his death, amputuated a limb without a saw with just a knife. An amputation can be performed through the joint without cutting the bone.
One can see the knife Pat used in the museum of the Royal Army Medical Corps.
This could have been done by homo sapiens 31,000 years ago.
On 20 April 1964, while serving as a Captain, he was attached to the 1/7 Gurkha Regiment as the Regimental Medical Officer in Sarawak when the helicopter he was travelling in suffered engine failure, crushing the arm of Major Eric Smith (Army officer), always known as "Birdie" Smith.[2] He amputated Smith's right arm without morphia, and stayed with Smith until they were evacuated by helicopter to Simmanggang. Despite complete exhaustion, he helped with surgery at Simmanggang and at Kuching. Crawford had already assisted six Gurkha soldiers to escape from the wreckage of the helicopter, there was a great danger of the remnants of the helicopter going up in flames, before he found Smith badly injured, trapped in the wreckage, and saved his life.
Pat was a big mate of mine who kept in contact with me until his death, amputuated a limb without a saw with just a knife. An amputation can be performed through the joint without cutting the bone.
One can see the knife Pat used in the museum of the Royal Army Medical Corps.
This could have been done by homo sapiens 31,000 years ago.
Thanks, Sqad.
Indeed, in point of fact, even if this weren't the earliest case of an amputation, there's another one that predates the invention of a saw, from some 7,000 years ago:
https:/
No saw needed. It's far more likely that people are underestimating the skill levels of prehistoric humans, and simultaneously overestimating the required knowledge.
Indeed, in point of fact, even if this weren't the earliest case of an amputation, there's another one that predates the invention of a saw, from some 7,000 years ago:
https:/
No saw needed. It's far more likely that people are underestimating the skill levels of prehistoric humans, and simultaneously overestimating the required knowledge.
As an aside, the case I linked earlier also serves to show the remarkable social cohesion of these cultures: this man was cared for, and perhaps seriously respected, for some years. It wouldn't surprise me, although this is clearly speculative, if the injury that prompted the amputation came about from some heroic act. Perhaps fending off an attack from another group, or a wild animal, or similar.
Sqad, //An amputation can be performed through the joint without cutting the bone. //
From the link.
//they found the skeleton of a young hunter-gatherer with a healed stump where its lower left leg and foot had been severed.//
That one was through the bone - without the benefit of a modern knife.
Jim, // It wouldn't surprise me, although this is clearly speculative, if the injury that prompted the amputation came about from some heroic act. Perhaps fending off an attack from another group, or a wild animal, or similar.//
And Zacs calls me fanciful! :o)
From the link.
//they found the skeleton of a young hunter-gatherer with a healed stump where its lower left leg and foot had been severed.//
That one was through the bone - without the benefit of a modern knife.
Jim, // It wouldn't surprise me, although this is clearly speculative, if the injury that prompted the amputation came about from some heroic act. Perhaps fending off an attack from another group, or a wild animal, or similar.//
And Zacs calls me fanciful! :o)
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