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My Science Question On Religion & Spirituality
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Please do talk about dogs - it's interesting that the Bible talks about "kinds", not ruling out diversity within species. Also, we don't see any "half and half" animals running about today.
All the examples given for evolution seem to be some kind of micro bugs. What about mammals? If evolution is proven, where are the higher examples, or did evolution stop some time ago?
All the examples given for evolution seem to be some kind of micro bugs. What about mammals? If evolution is proven, where are the higher examples, or did evolution stop some time ago?
Greetings, dawkins... that didn't take long...
The oldest rocks yet discovered on Earth date at around 3.9 bya. Prior to this time, the earth existed largely in a molten state unsuitable for life. Interestingly, geochemical evidence places the presence of life on Earth at 3.86 bya. As you infer, some origin-of-life researchers suggest that extremophiles came first and later gave rise to mesophiles. Extremophiles appear to be the oldest and most primitive organisms on Earth. However, other scientific data challenge that explanation. Such as:
The oldest remains of thermophilic microorganisms are in beds dated 3.2-bya, whereas photosynthetic bacteria existed as early as 3.5 billion years ago and possibly as far back as 3.86 billion years ago. So what, you say.... well, photosynthetic bacteria, like the early sulfate-reducing bacteria, thrived at moderate surface conditions. The geochemical and fossil records fail to validate a thermophilic origin of life. Instead, the historical record demonstrates that mesophiles were well established long before thermophiles appeared. Nature�s historical record contradicts thermophilic origin-of-life scenarios. (Partial Source: Michael Gross, Life on the Edge: Amazing Creatures Thriving in Extreme Environments).
Isn't it a little interesting that the same bacteria are present today in essentially the same forms? I would have expected... oh, I dunno... some change maybe?
No source available to me has any indication that radiometric dating of sedimentary rocks produces any reliable age date. In sedimentary rocks, one can date the individual grains of sediment which tells you age of source rock, but not deposition.
Contd.
The oldest rocks yet discovered on Earth date at around 3.9 bya. Prior to this time, the earth existed largely in a molten state unsuitable for life. Interestingly, geochemical evidence places the presence of life on Earth at 3.86 bya. As you infer, some origin-of-life researchers suggest that extremophiles came first and later gave rise to mesophiles. Extremophiles appear to be the oldest and most primitive organisms on Earth. However, other scientific data challenge that explanation. Such as:
The oldest remains of thermophilic microorganisms are in beds dated 3.2-bya, whereas photosynthetic bacteria existed as early as 3.5 billion years ago and possibly as far back as 3.86 billion years ago. So what, you say.... well, photosynthetic bacteria, like the early sulfate-reducing bacteria, thrived at moderate surface conditions. The geochemical and fossil records fail to validate a thermophilic origin of life. Instead, the historical record demonstrates that mesophiles were well established long before thermophiles appeared. Nature�s historical record contradicts thermophilic origin-of-life scenarios. (Partial Source: Michael Gross, Life on the Edge: Amazing Creatures Thriving in Extreme Environments).
Isn't it a little interesting that the same bacteria are present today in essentially the same forms? I would have expected... oh, I dunno... some change maybe?
No source available to me has any indication that radiometric dating of sedimentary rocks produces any reliable age date. In sedimentary rocks, one can date the individual grains of sediment which tells you age of source rock, but not deposition.
Contd.
Contd.
Your definition of speciation is but one of many. Each example you produce is countered by arguments from within, not without, the biology community. I admit some ignorance of a valid definition since there is so much disagreemnt among the experts. Heck... your's is as good as any, I guess...
Let's talk dogs...
Oh! almost overlooked... can you name a few of your abundance of transitional forms please? Thanx...
Your definition of speciation is but one of many. Each example you produce is countered by arguments from within, not without, the biology community. I admit some ignorance of a valid definition since there is so much disagreemnt among the experts. Heck... your's is as good as any, I guess...
Let's talk dogs...
Oh! almost overlooked... can you name a few of your abundance of transitional forms please? Thanx...
That's an excellent point Clanad, that these micro bugs are still around and in the same form.
China Doll - I'm curious as to whether you have a scientific background, or like me, are just really interested in the subject matter.
Either way, it's good to have your contribution, and so widen the debate. Thanks.
China Doll - I'm curious as to whether you have a scientific background, or like me, are just really interested in the subject matter.
Either way, it's good to have your contribution, and so widen the debate. Thanks.
Hello Landy,
No, absolutely no scientific background whatsoever other than G.C.S.E. Double Award, oh the dizzy heights!... I just read a lot and then end up with a lot of questions and I'm very curious.
I have a liking for the abstract (hence my interest in your question) but I'm interested in the science behind it. Also I think it's remarkably interesting how so many philosophies are tied in with Science and when something goes from an idea to a fact. And the notion that Maths is the language of philosophie is also very interesting.
So that's where my interest starts. Every thing else I just attempt to follow and learn from in my own little way.
(Be careful tho Landy, soon they'll start sticking links up which are usually interesting and you should read but before you know it you realise that you've actually got homework for the first time in years and you don't know how that happened! They're very cunning....)
Currently I appear to be banned (no, I've no idea why either) so I'm not sure when you get this response but at least I know I've done it!
No, absolutely no scientific background whatsoever other than G.C.S.E. Double Award, oh the dizzy heights!... I just read a lot and then end up with a lot of questions and I'm very curious.
I have a liking for the abstract (hence my interest in your question) but I'm interested in the science behind it. Also I think it's remarkably interesting how so many philosophies are tied in with Science and when something goes from an idea to a fact. And the notion that Maths is the language of philosophie is also very interesting.
So that's where my interest starts. Every thing else I just attempt to follow and learn from in my own little way.
(Be careful tho Landy, soon they'll start sticking links up which are usually interesting and you should read but before you know it you realise that you've actually got homework for the first time in years and you don't know how that happened! They're very cunning....)
Currently I appear to be banned (no, I've no idea why either) so I'm not sure when you get this response but at least I know I've done it!
I'm not a scientist , and don't for one minute offer a scientific opinion
However , surely the question is , if you beleive in evolution , then who / what would you say created the ( ' big bang ' - the universe as we know it ) from which evolution would have subsequently taken place , millions of miles down the road ?.
Surely there must have been 'something' before the big bang - there can't have been nothing
However , surely the question is , if you beleive in evolution , then who / what would you say created the ( ' big bang ' - the universe as we know it ) from which evolution would have subsequently taken place , millions of miles down the road ?.
Surely there must have been 'something' before the big bang - there can't have been nothing
What basis do you have to anthropomophise the big bang?
Actually Bazille, your argument is called the first cause argument. The problem is not solved by evoking a god because: who created god? (the answer, of course, is man created god. Just look at the geographical distribution of belief systems). I don't know what prompted the big bang but that does not offer any evidence that it was designed.
Bazile - your argument is also somewhat analogous to the idea that we should not explore the world around us until we understand how exactly the earth was formed. You work with what you have, and we have a massive laboratory ( earth and its myriad lifeforms) to observe, measure map and experiment with... The logical extension of your argument would be to say that we can do none of these things until we had fully understood how the ball of rock we all rest upon actually came about in the first place!
*cough* god of the gaps *cough*
Doesn't it worry you that you've insisted God must live in the gaps, but with each scientific discovery he's running out of places to hide?
First he was in an eyeball, then he wasn't. Then he was in a flagellum's tail, then he wasn't...
It's ironic that by gate-crashing science, the theists have engineered their own ultimate destruction.
Doesn't it worry you that you've insisted God must live in the gaps, but with each scientific discovery he's running out of places to hide?
First he was in an eyeball, then he wasn't. Then he was in a flagellum's tail, then he wasn't...
It's ironic that by gate-crashing science, the theists have engineered their own ultimate destruction.
I dunno Waldo, I think Theland has me with his assertion that god simply "is".
Theland, the argument of first cause is a logical fallacy. It neither proves nor disproves the existence of a creator. That's the point. You may as well say: "I've lost my keys, an elf has taken them. Not knowing if an elf has taken them does not preclude the existence of elfs"
Theland, the argument of first cause is a logical fallacy. It neither proves nor disproves the existence of a creator. That's the point. You may as well say: "I've lost my keys, an elf has taken them. Not knowing if an elf has taken them does not preclude the existence of elfs"
Rock ages and Radioismetric testing.
The ages of Igneous rock formations can be accurately dated by a variety of radioisometric "clocks", and is conventionally dated using more than one method to act as a cross check.Sedimentary rock cannot be directly measured in quite the same way. However, minerals isolated from within the sedimentary strata can be dated to give minimum ages. Other physical measuring methods would include glauconites and probably more importantly zircons, using Uranium - Lead dating methods. This, coupled with accurate RI dating of the igneous rocks
surrounding the sedimentary layers can all be crossreferenced to build up an accurate method for dating both igneous and sedimentary rock layers. Additional dating information can be provided by measuring the levels of such rare elements as Iridium ( but common in asteroids etc),which are thought to have been deposited through cometary and meteorite impacts upon
the earth, which can give baseline measurements. Finally, the fossil record can be used as additional supportive evidence of the relative ages. The ages of the fossils in question is largely derived from index fossils and the known fossil record.Please also bear in mind that the thousands of researchers conducting the thousands of experiments in this area will be fully aware of the possible areas of error, and that their experiments and conclusions take these into account.
The ages of Igneous rock formations can be accurately dated by a variety of radioisometric "clocks", and is conventionally dated using more than one method to act as a cross check.Sedimentary rock cannot be directly measured in quite the same way. However, minerals isolated from within the sedimentary strata can be dated to give minimum ages. Other physical measuring methods would include glauconites and probably more importantly zircons, using Uranium - Lead dating methods. This, coupled with accurate RI dating of the igneous rocks
surrounding the sedimentary layers can all be crossreferenced to build up an accurate method for dating both igneous and sedimentary rock layers. Additional dating information can be provided by measuring the levels of such rare elements as Iridium ( but common in asteroids etc),which are thought to have been deposited through cometary and meteorite impacts upon
the earth, which can give baseline measurements. Finally, the fossil record can be used as additional supportive evidence of the relative ages. The ages of the fossils in question is largely derived from index fossils and the known fossil record.Please also bear in mind that the thousands of researchers conducting the thousands of experiments in this area will be fully aware of the possible areas of error, and that their experiments and conclusions take these into account.
Transitional fossils.
Definition of a transitional fossil - an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology
that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.
Examples. - As dawkins pointed out earlier, there will always be some isolated voices contesting the evidence, and in my view those contesting the claim are largely either not credible or are contesting them merely because they do not fit their creationist world view, but there are many ,many examples of such transitions. Probably the most well known are the Reptile -Bird descent and archeopteryx, and reptile to mamman descent, where there are step by step fossils detailing the change from peg like teeth in reptiles to the variate teeth in mammals ( incisors, molars etc). There is also the change in the complex 5- bone jaw of a reptile to the single dentary jaw of the mammal.This change also involved transitions between the reptilian jaw and mammalian hearing. Incidentally, this is why we can hear the sound of ourselves chewing.
Definition of a transitional fossil - an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology
that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.
Examples. - As dawkins pointed out earlier, there will always be some isolated voices contesting the evidence, and in my view those contesting the claim are largely either not credible or are contesting them merely because they do not fit their creationist world view, but there are many ,many examples of such transitions. Probably the most well known are the Reptile -Bird descent and archeopteryx, and reptile to mamman descent, where there are step by step fossils detailing the change from peg like teeth in reptiles to the variate teeth in mammals ( incisors, molars etc). There is also the change in the complex 5- bone jaw of a reptile to the single dentary jaw of the mammal.This change also involved transitions between the reptilian jaw and mammalian hearing. Incidentally, this is why we can hear the sound of ourselves chewing.
Observed evolutionary events and speciation.
Definition of evolution - A change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years.Another would be microbes developing a resistance to antibiotics.A third would be the continual mutations of viruses.The domestication of animals is also a telling example,with humans providing the selective pressure rather than natural events.The fact that this is an intelligent application of the theory neither invalidates the theory of evolution nor provides evidence for so called "Intelligent Design", as you well know Clanad.
The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220)
Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a dog changing into a giraffe. Evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that.
Speciation - There are indeed many different definitions of speciation, but thesedefinitions are largely due to the differences in reproduction between the major types of organism... plant, arthropod, invertabrate, mammal and their types of reproduction ( self pollination, asexual, sexual etc). That doesnt mean to say that no examples can be found. Such examples can be found amongst plants ( evening primrose, goatsbeards), insect (drosophila), mammal (faroe island mouse), fish (cichlids)
Definition of evolution - A change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years.Another would be microbes developing a resistance to antibiotics.A third would be the continual mutations of viruses.The domestication of animals is also a telling example,with humans providing the selective pressure rather than natural events.The fact that this is an intelligent application of the theory neither invalidates the theory of evolution nor provides evidence for so called "Intelligent Design", as you well know Clanad.
The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220)
Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a dog changing into a giraffe. Evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that.
Speciation - There are indeed many different definitions of speciation, but thesedefinitions are largely due to the differences in reproduction between the major types of organism... plant, arthropod, invertabrate, mammal and their types of reproduction ( self pollination, asexual, sexual etc). That doesnt mean to say that no examples can be found. Such examples can be found amongst plants ( evening primrose, goatsbeards), insect (drosophila), mammal (faroe island mouse), fish (cichlids)
Abiogenesis.
The Miller -Urey experiments were amazing in that they showed that amino acids could be formed in an assumptive early earth environment consisting of high levels of reducing elements and compounds ( methane, hydrogen). They are not considered obsolete or irrelevant at all, but the amount of such reducing agents present in the early earth environment has been contested in more recent years.Even relatively low levels of reducing agents could provide the necessary conditions for amino acids to form, and evidence is there to show that such conditions could have existed (thick deposits of uranite, for example).Instead, researchers have looked to other complementary hypotheses to explain how life on earth could come about from the inorganic to organic, and the role of RNA, clay, and metabolism have become more arguably more important.
See the attached article for a very interesting review of the most recent theories.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/archive/1545-7 885/3/11/pdf/10.1371_journal.pbio.0030396-S.pd f
The Miller -Urey experiments were amazing in that they showed that amino acids could be formed in an assumptive early earth environment consisting of high levels of reducing elements and compounds ( methane, hydrogen). They are not considered obsolete or irrelevant at all, but the amount of such reducing agents present in the early earth environment has been contested in more recent years.Even relatively low levels of reducing agents could provide the necessary conditions for amino acids to form, and evidence is there to show that such conditions could have existed (thick deposits of uranite, for example).Instead, researchers have looked to other complementary hypotheses to explain how life on earth could come about from the inorganic to organic, and the role of RNA, clay, and metabolism have become more arguably more important.
See the attached article for a very interesting review of the most recent theories.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/archive/1545-7 885/3/11/pdf/10.1371_journal.pbio.0030396-S.pd f
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