Free will?

[ll_billym]

Given that all matter in the universe came from the big-bang and time itself started at the big-bang, the state and location of stars, planets, galaxies, etc. in fact all matter in our universe today is a direct result of the specific conditions present at the big-bang. Any tiny variation in the parameters of the big-bang would result in a different universe to the one we have today, agreed?

So, completely hypothetically, it would be possible to attach timetravel camera(s) to any planet (or atom for that matter) and rewind and watch that planet (or atom) back through billions of years right back to whatever it was at the time of the big bang (energy?) and know that the movements of that planet (or atom) was determined at the beginning of time due to the exact parameters of the big bang?

So, if we are happy to do this for planets, we could also do this for the atoms that make up a human being? Are what we are all doing at this exact moment determined at the moment of the big-bang? If so does that mean we do not have free will,

You could say, "I'm sat reading this post because of X", but X happened because of Y and Y because of W etc. etc., can this be traced all the way back to the parameters of the big-bang?

Do we have free will if we are made entirely of physical matter?

How is it that we are happy to say that "that distant galaxy is exactly how it is due to the parameters of the big-bang but our little planet is not because we are on it imposing our free will upon it?"

Thanks for reading, and please let me know what you think.

[R1Geezer]

ahh the old pre determinism argument, study the 2 areas below and I think you'll agree it's boll0x
1) Chaos Theory.
2) Hiesenberg Uncertainty Principle
3) Quantum mechanics

1) alone blows it out of the water.

[R1Geezer]

doh! 3 areas!

[Clanad]

Is it not true that out of all the items you've listed, none actually has a will of its own. Neither atoms nor galaxies can move, exist or demonstrate any will of their own. They must obey physical laws while we, on the other hand, do have free will insofar as determining our actions. It can be said we have restraints on our actions of various kinds, but few of those restraints are set in concrete, so to speak. i.e., there was a time not so distant past that man believed he could never travel to the Moon, but, voila! Yet a star cannot, of it's will, move from its galaxy to another, since it has no will, being an inanimate object.
Tell me once again how you intend to attach time travel cameras...

[karatant]

blue tack ? Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ll_billym]

Hey, I'm only asking for opinions here and all are welcome.

R1 - Do 1, 2, and 3 exist because of the starting parameters of the universe?

Clanad - If galaxies and humans both come from the same starting point whay do you attach free will to one and not the other?

karatant - blu tack leaves stains on the walls but happy new year.

[mibn2cweus]

I'm not so sure that free will is free. There is always some form of payment in any bargain.�

The advantage of having options to choose from is paid for with our learning about the nature of ourselves and the universe we live in, what alternatives are available to us and with the acquisition of wisdom gained from experience, a knowledge of what we can and should do.�

The will to live according to our nature as rational beings is ultimately a question of our choice to think where the hard won freedom to do so and the mutual recognition and defense of the essential right to benefit accordingly has been attained.

Of all the wonders in the universe the attainment of an ability to envision, choose and to travel the road that leads to ones desired destiny is perhaps the most precious feature of our universe to have evolved out of the big bang, to the extent it has up until the present day been realised.

Apart from the consequential potential of an ability to reason that arose from a billions years old chain of causality and a respect for the essential right to derive the benefits provided to those who choose to practice it equitably and fairly, free will is nothing more than an illusion of what few would argue could not and should never be.

Free will should at the very least allow us to imagine a universe where something (hopefully us) mattered.

Oh, and Happy New Year!

[R1Geezer]

Yes they do and as such ensure that no predetermined outcomes can exist. 1) has been shown to create massive differences with even tiny changes in initial conditions. In both physical things and mathematically.

[jake-the-peg]

A bit over a hundred years ago a lot of scientists would have agreed, that the interactions between matter are pre determined and if you knew them all you could work out everything if you had a big enough computer things were predetermined, the Universe was Mechanistic.

Then a number of interesting things happened. A rather Brilliant French Mathematician called Henri Poincarre discoverred that although you could calculate the orbit of two bodies, when you got more than that it was not possible to calculate their position at any given time. He had discovered the first Chaotic system in maths.

Then Quantum Mecanics came along - Einstein hated it but "God does play dice with the Universe" and at the very lowest level probability governs interactions.

Put these two facts together and if you were to set the universe back to where it was say 10 years ago and set in running again it would unfold differently.

Geezer has included HUP (2) but I'm not quite sure how this differs from Quantum Mechanics (3)

As to whether these laws come about due to the startingconditions of the Universe that is unknown.

We have little insight into how various physical laws are set.

This is important because it looks as if the Universe is just right for life but without knowing which of these laws and constants are related and in which way it's not possible to see how likely or unlikely this actually is.

Blue eyes 10% - blonde hair 10% does not mean blue eyes blonde hair 1%

[Rev. Green]

The future is indeterminate because of Chaos theory and the Uncertainty Principle, but this has nothing at all to do with Free Will.
Experiments looking at the brain have shown that subjects had already unconsciously decided which hand to move before they thought that they were choosing one by free will.
So free will probably doesn't exist. I could go on - but I've chosen not to!

[karatant]

jubilee clips ?

[jake-the-peg]

I don't think that's directly to dowith free will Rev.

We all have instictive reactions some innate and some learned.

The issue of free will comes about regarding more complex decisions.

Whilst I think that free will is real I think we exercise it much less frequently than we think we do.

Much of the time we're on automatic pilot.

You only have to watch some of the stuff Darren Brown does to see that!

[mibn2cweus]

Jake, I admire your ability to express my own thoughts so diplomatically. Nevertheless I offer my own interpretation:

To a large extent our actions are predetermined by our programming. Such internal hardwiring is essential to our ability to act and react (and with any luck respond appropriately) with lightning speed to various stimuli. The programming we received in our childhood dictates to a lesser or greater degree our beliefs and responses to a given circumstance or situation.

Introspection, examination and modification of the programming and beliefs we were provided in childhood enables us to alter the course of our own behavior and define ourselves as unique individuals. Apart from such an ability we would be exempt of responsibility for the consequences of our actions and would be deprived of the benefits of rational self-interest.

The choice of whether or not to examine and evaluate our programming and to acquire and use the knowledge of what we can and should believe and do defines the crossroad at which freewill distinguishes a rational being from an unquestioning disciple and mindless automaton.

[Rev. Green]

Good reply, as always, Jake - also mibn.

Can anyone think of an experiment to test if someone has free will? If we can't be shown to have it, perhaps we don't.

[ll_billym]

Thanks for the answers so far guys.

Could you commment on the fact that although we are human we are just a collection of atoms and energy. Even taking into account chaos theory etc, the state of the universe and everything in it (us included), at any point in time is a direct result of something that happened just before that point, and so on and so on right back to the big bang?

How then can we have free will if all is dependant on what's happened in the past that we now cannot change?

[R1Geezer]

Not being funny mate but you really need to get a grounding in quantum mechanics, especially the HUP. You also need to acknowledge the implications of Chaos theory, it's clear from your last response that you have not really grasped what is being said above.

[Rev. Green]

Forget chaos theory and the uncertainty principle. They just say that if you toss a coin you can't predict whether it will come down heads or tails - tiny fluctuations can make it go either way. So if you rewind time and repeat the last five minutes the outcome will almost certainly be different.

Free will is quite different. If I have free will I can choose what to do. So I can decide whether or not to raise my right hand. At first sight, the motion of all atoms seems determined by the motion of previous atoms, so free will seems impossible. This was supported by the experiment I mentioned above: people were asked to choose which hand to move. Their brains were monitored and at a certain time brain signals occured showing that the left hand (say) would move. However, when they were asked when they had chosen (by free will) which hand to move, it was at a later time i.e. when they thought they were choosing, the brain had already decided.

People under hypnosis are similar. The hypnotist makes them do what he wants, but they always say "I chose to act like a chicken because I wanted to, I could have chosen not to."

However, if every thing is just the result of atoms knocking each other, how do you get the feeling that you are thinking? And does your computer have a similar feeling?

[ll_billym]

Thanks Rev. you seem to understand where I am coming from with my question and raise some interesting points.

R1, can you please post an answer that actually says something about my question "free will" rather than just listing scientific theory subject titles and telling me I know nothing about them. Maybe show off a little of your knowledge if you have so much?