ChatterBank4 mins ago
Water Dowsers
Is there a scientific explanation why water dowsers appear to work (for most people anyway)?
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*ahem* Chakka -sorry but they do. I've seen it in action. A large construction company based in Epsom, Surrey used to hire dowsers to help them find underground water as part of their planning/building strategy...regularly -because IT WORKED.
What's more anyone can do it -even the opinionated skeptics ;-)
What's more anyone can do it -even the opinionated skeptics ;-)
Such anecdotal ‘evidence’, Mustardmit, is of little value, for reasons I’ll explain.
What matters is that every organised test of water divining fails to show any evidence for it. The explanation is the same as that for the apparent success of the ouija board – the ideomotor effect whereby a person, quite inconsciously and without intentionally cheating, transfers his or her thoughts to the device. Thus, a diviner who has some reason to believe that water is there “tells” the rods to behave accordingly.
Tests involving containers of various substances, water pipes buried secretly underground and so on consistently prove that diving has no more success than you would expect by chance. James Randi, for one, conducted a test of several diviners using a protocol that they had all agreed upon and all failed. He said:
“The sad fact is that diviners are no better at finding water than anyone else.
Drill a well almost anywhere where water is geologically possible and you will find it.”
Did those companies who employed diviners try drilling 50 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet, a quarter-mile, in various directions, from the diviner’s spot to see whether water was unique to that spot? If so, what was the result? If not, then the anecdote means little.
What matters is that every organised test of water divining fails to show any evidence for it. The explanation is the same as that for the apparent success of the ouija board – the ideomotor effect whereby a person, quite inconsciously and without intentionally cheating, transfers his or her thoughts to the device. Thus, a diviner who has some reason to believe that water is there “tells” the rods to behave accordingly.
Tests involving containers of various substances, water pipes buried secretly underground and so on consistently prove that diving has no more success than you would expect by chance. James Randi, for one, conducted a test of several diviners using a protocol that they had all agreed upon and all failed. He said:
“The sad fact is that diviners are no better at finding water than anyone else.
Drill a well almost anywhere where water is geologically possible and you will find it.”
Did those companies who employed diviners try drilling 50 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet, a quarter-mile, in various directions, from the diviner’s spot to see whether water was unique to that spot? If so, what was the result? If not, then the anecdote means little.
Here is proof that it works. He has been doing this for 30 years and earns a good living from it.
http://www.jackcoelwaterdowsing.com/
http://www.jackcoelwaterdowsing.com/
heathfield and Mustardmit, how strange that you should accuse me of being 'opinionated' and 'having my mind made up'! And now we have TelephOne as well.
I am dealing with facts and evidence, starting with an open mind and arriving at a rational conclusion.
If you don't care about such methods, fine. I'll leave you to your beliefs. You're obviously more comfortable that way.
I am dealing with facts and evidence, starting with an open mind and arriving at a rational conclusion.
If you don't care about such methods, fine. I'll leave you to your beliefs. You're obviously more comfortable that way.
Many years ago I fooled around with dowsing and several strange experiences leave me wondering what is really going on.
The most bizarre was when a neighbour asked me to try. They had previously had a remote dowsing done over a crude map of the property. The dowser had never seen the property and the dowsing was done many miles away.
My neighbour believed in dowsing but the remote technique seemed just a little to far fetched. Remarkably without seeing the map I found all the exact same locations and depths with flows at about three quarters the remote reading which had been done in wetter times.
Dowsing remains one of the most puzzling things I have ever experienced.
The most bizarre was when a neighbour asked me to try. They had previously had a remote dowsing done over a crude map of the property. The dowser had never seen the property and the dowsing was done many miles away.
My neighbour believed in dowsing but the remote technique seemed just a little to far fetched. Remarkably without seeing the map I found all the exact same locations and depths with flows at about three quarters the remote reading which had been done in wetter times.
Dowsing remains one of the most puzzling things I have ever experienced.
I also have a story told to me by my wife about an experience six of her friends had with a Ouija board as students. It should be enough to keep anyone away from them.
The six young men were told by the board that five of them would be soon dead.
Within a short time the prediction was fulfilled. One of the dead was my wife's fiance.
The first died of a heart attack after playing football.
The second got off a bus before it stopped and hit a power pole.
The third died in a motorcycle collision when a motorist turned across his path.
The fourth misjudged an intersection and had a head on collision with a bus.
The fifth committed suicide because he could no longer handle wonding if it would be him or the other remaing member of the group.
Anyone care to consider the odds of this?
There is far more to this reality then meets the eye.
The six young men were told by the board that five of them would be soon dead.
Within a short time the prediction was fulfilled. One of the dead was my wife's fiance.
The first died of a heart attack after playing football.
The second got off a bus before it stopped and hit a power pole.
The third died in a motorcycle collision when a motorist turned across his path.
The fourth misjudged an intersection and had a head on collision with a bus.
The fifth committed suicide because he could no longer handle wonding if it would be him or the other remaing member of the group.
Anyone care to consider the odds of this?
There is far more to this reality then meets the eye.
Beso, although I cannot corroborate your story I have long suspected that drawing conclusions based on phenomena not completely understood can have grave consequences.
As your precautionary tale suggests, attempts to bypass the prerequisite understanding subverts the rational process, a habit not recommended for one with intentions of venturing out into and navigating a lawful and ordered reality made arbitrary by virtue of the unknown.
http://www.randi.org/...owsing-for-bombs.html
As your precautionary tale suggests, attempts to bypass the prerequisite understanding subverts the rational process, a habit not recommended for one with intentions of venturing out into and navigating a lawful and ordered reality made arbitrary by virtue of the unknown.
http://www.randi.org/...owsing-for-bombs.html
To the deluded I ask this. If you where dowser and I gave you a chance to win 1 million dollars in one go would you take it? Well James Randi or the sceptics society has been offerring that for years. No dwoser has passed the test, a test, the format of which the dowsers agreed on. So what happenned then can you explain why under proper scientific scrutiny it fails. Chakka is correct, another branch of the wornderful world of total b0llux.
cue the insults of the deluded who would rather lash out that admit they've been conned........
cue the insults of the deluded who would rather lash out that admit they've been conned........
beso, are you interested in discussing this rationally, bearing in mind that this is the Science site? If so:
The Ouija board depends on the ideomotor effect as does dowsing. There are many ways in which it has been shown that the board/tumbler is moved subconsciously by the players. One simple way is to blindfold them, whereupon the board either doesn’t move or it spells out gibberish, a fair indication that the players need to see what message is building up. (The same happens with dowsing. A blindfolded dowser who cannot see the terrain he is traversing produces zero result.)
I know it irritates believers when I say it, but it is true nevertheless: anecdotes are not evidence.
One of the reasons for this is that anecdotes, by definition, are told after the incident has taken place, sometimes long after. This makes it difficult if not impossible (and probably time-consuming) for an independent researcher to interview all concerned to get at the real facts of what happened. (A superb example of how this was done, involving great time and expense, is in Larry Kusche’s book The Bermuda Triangle Mystery – Solved. His team re-investigated every main story from scratch and found that there was nothing mysterious about any of them. Read the book; it’s fascinating.)
This is why it is better to get someone who claims an unusual ability and test him under carefully controlled conditions so that everything can be observed and filmed at first hand. As R1Geezer says, the dowsers always fail these tests or refuse to enter, which why none of them is a millionaire.
I’ll discuss your Ouija board story later.
The Ouija board depends on the ideomotor effect as does dowsing. There are many ways in which it has been shown that the board/tumbler is moved subconsciously by the players. One simple way is to blindfold them, whereupon the board either doesn’t move or it spells out gibberish, a fair indication that the players need to see what message is building up. (The same happens with dowsing. A blindfolded dowser who cannot see the terrain he is traversing produces zero result.)
I know it irritates believers when I say it, but it is true nevertheless: anecdotes are not evidence.
One of the reasons for this is that anecdotes, by definition, are told after the incident has taken place, sometimes long after. This makes it difficult if not impossible (and probably time-consuming) for an independent researcher to interview all concerned to get at the real facts of what happened. (A superb example of how this was done, involving great time and expense, is in Larry Kusche’s book The Bermuda Triangle Mystery – Solved. His team re-investigated every main story from scratch and found that there was nothing mysterious about any of them. Read the book; it’s fascinating.)
This is why it is better to get someone who claims an unusual ability and test him under carefully controlled conditions so that everything can be observed and filmed at first hand. As R1Geezer says, the dowsers always fail these tests or refuse to enter, which why none of them is a millionaire.
I’ll discuss your Ouija board story later.
The first died of a heart attack after playing football.
The second got off a bus before it stopped and hit a power pole.
The third died in a motorcycle collision when a motorist turned across his path.
The fourth misjudged an intersection and had a head on collision with a bus.
The fifth committed suicide because he could no longer handle wonding if it would be him or the other remaing member of the group
Beso have you been watching the films "Final destination" recently?
Was the reason for his suicide logged, have you got a link as i would like to see a newspaper article of these happenings as im pretty sure the media would jumped on these "Eerie" happenings.
The second got off a bus before it stopped and hit a power pole.
The third died in a motorcycle collision when a motorist turned across his path.
The fourth misjudged an intersection and had a head on collision with a bus.
The fifth committed suicide because he could no longer handle wonding if it would be him or the other remaing member of the group
Beso have you been watching the films "Final destination" recently?
Was the reason for his suicide logged, have you got a link as i would like to see a newspaper article of these happenings as im pretty sure the media would jumped on these "Eerie" happenings.
beso...Huffy puts the general idea in a nutshell, but here is a fuller version:
Did someone make a note of the exact message derived from the Ouija board?
Can you tell us the names of these five people, and where and when they died, so that we can look up inquest verdicts, police reports, newspaper stories so as to get all the facts?
Did the last one leave a suicide note, or some other clue as to his reasons for killing himself?
Without this information you must surely see that it's, well...just an anecdote.
Did someone make a note of the exact message derived from the Ouija board?
Can you tell us the names of these five people, and where and when they died, so that we can look up inquest verdicts, police reports, newspaper stories so as to get all the facts?
Did the last one leave a suicide note, or some other clue as to his reasons for killing himself?
Without this information you must surely see that it's, well...just an anecdote.
As water is a requirement for living then maybe you would need an extra sense to look for it. Remember the first humans originated from Africa such a parched area. All we are doing is reviving skills our predecessors had. It took us ages to believe that birds have an inbuilt compass equally remarkable.
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