Youth Caution

[MommyFighter]

Advice needed please. The Police want to give my 11 year old son a caution for a Racially Aggravated public Order Offence. Details of the incident are; My son was in his local park with a group of friends of similar age watching and discussing You Tube videos/vines. During his conversation with his friends he was asked and he repeated 'have you seen the Allah Akbar Drop the bomb sponge bob square pants vine' We were called into the police station and my son was questioned under caution. Apparantly a lady in the park overheard what was being said, took offence and reported it to the police, she had taken a photograph of my son and now the police want to I with a caution which will be a criminal record. My son had no idea the lady was in the park, he explained to the police office he didn't know hat it meant and the police officer had to tell him. My son is 11 years old with Autism and Global learning difficulties. I really don't think my son has done anything wrong to warrant such a caution being issued. I am asking for advice as I don't know what will happen if we refuse the caution and take it further to the courts?? His statement was completely innocent, it was not aimed at anyone, it was not said with intent to cause harm and he was completely unaware any one was around. Do he police have enough evidence?? Thank you in advance. Poor and desperate cant afford legal advice and the clock is ticking. THANK YOU for any advice.

[Booldawg]

Hopefully common sense will prevail and all will be made clearer at the Police Station.

As of yet, you only know that the woman has made a complaint, you don't know exactly what she told the Police.

What he said doesn't have enough meat on the bones to warrant a complaint such as that.

[New Judge]

Let’s have a look at the law. I imagine the police are thinking of Section 5 of the Public Order Act. It says this (and I’ve left out bits that do not seem relevant from what you’ve told us):

Harassment, alarm or distress.

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening or abusive words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) [not relevant]

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

(2) [Not relevant]

(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—

(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or

(b) [Not relevant]

(c) That his conduct was reasonable.

So, first of all were his words “threatening or abusive”. You told us he was asked and repeated:

“have you seen the Allah Akbar Drop the bomb sponge bob square pants vine'

Threatening? I think possibly not. If so, who was thretened? Abusive? Abusive towards whom? What was the nature of the abuse?

Then:

(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—

(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress,

“My son had no idea the lady was in the park, he explained to the police office he didn't know hat it meant and the police officer had to tell him.”
I think you need to establish precisely what is alleged. If the allegation is as straightforward as you have explained to us then I think it fails under para 1(a) in that it could not be construed as threatening or abusive. Even if the police are not with you on that then the statutory defence (para 3a) kicks in. Note that for such a defence to succeed you only have to show that your son had "...no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress," and NOT that there actually was not any such person.

A trip to the Citizens Advice Bureau may point you towards getting a free legal opinion. If that opinion concurs with mine (which is that I believe the police are trying it on for reasons that escape me at the moment) I would tell the police to place their caution where the sun does not shine. They can then decide whether to take your son before the Youth Court where a more reasoned decision might be reached.

[EDDIE51]

Fully agree with NJ, CAB for advice. I can't see this getting to court, police have overstepped the mark here.

[johnny37]

Isnt an 11yo entitled to legal aid? It is your son who is being charged, not you.

[ummmm]

Police do go over the top at times.

My son had a scrap on the football pitch, all handbags at dawn, but the police turned up at my house after the other boys mother phoned them and they read him his rights and took a statement (at home) I was perplexed.

Crazy waste of police time.

[EdmundD]

//Crazy waste of police time//

Obviously haven't got enough to do.......

[TWR]

Did this woman tape the conversation?
Was the statement directed at her?
Did the nasty woman know your son has Autism?
Typical society of today, even a Child has to watch what they are saying, what a sad world this is.

[ummmm]

Edmonrd....they have plenty to do. Wasting time on playground scraps shouldn't be one of them.

[ummmm]

*EdmundD

Sorry.

[EdmundD]

Ummmm - tongue in cheek comment. I would much rather they didn't waste time on playground scraps when there are far more serious issues to be addressed.

[MommyFighter]

Wow.. Thank you all very much for your answers and advice. We have not been told under what section of the Public Order offence they wish to Caution my son! Have requested this information but has not been submitted yet. The police have told us they are 'scared' concerning incidents like this! and I briefly spoke to a solicitor who said that the police need to be seen to be doing something with racial associated complaints. The 'victim' was over 30 feet away from son with trees separating them. my son did not see her until she started taking photos of him and his friends. The police have said the 'Victim' wants the book thrown at my son and she is very traumatised by the whole event!!! I have looked at the Sections of Public Order NEW JUDGE I am in total agreement with you. We have now told the police we are not happy to accept the caution and we are now waiting to see what happens next. THANK YOU TO YOU ALL

[Buenchico]

NJ has correctly pointed out what is in the Public Order Act. It might be worth noting what, specifically, isn't in it. The Government originally intended the Act to include 'insulting' behaviour, where it might be construed that anything which insulted a person's religion would be an offence. However, after a great deal of protest, that term was removed from the legislation:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/14/insulting-section-5-public-order-act

It seems to me that the police are relying upon a piece of legislation (i.e. 'insulting a person's religion') which simply doesn't exist.

I can see no way that a Youth Court could find sufficient evidence for a conviction in this case. I'm confident that the CPS would take a similar view, so I can't possibly see how (if the caution was to be refused) the matter could ever be taken to court.

[TWR]

What did she use to hear the conversation a hearing horn Mom? sounds to me as if the nasty piece of work has nothing else to do, is there a case here of defamation against the child NJ?

[EDDIE51]

Good on you Mommy Fighter, refuse the caution and demand it goes to court.
Just one tiny point, the woman who complained could have no way to know your son was autistic so that can't be put into the case.
But it is true the Police seem to think they must act on anything that even looks as though it could be deemed 'racist' and often go 'over the top'.
I just can not see this going to court, the woman will have to be the main witness and explain how she heard all this from 30 ft away behind some trees.

[New Judge]

By the way, when your son was interviewed under caution he should have been offered free legal representation. Was it offered? Was the offer taken up?

[MommyFighter]

Hi New Judge. No we were not offed any legal representation.

[EDDIE51]

^^ You have got them 'bang to rights' there Mommy Fighter.
A solicitor would have told them their case was hopeless . Not offering a solicitor is a serious breach of your son's rights. Almost certainly a cause to sue them!

[EDDIE51]

mommy Fighter you MUST complain to the police about the failure to offer legal help, your sons being autistic makes it more serious.
Help to complain here
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/easyread/Easyread_How_to_make_a_complaint_about_the_police.pdf
I will take a large bet they back down as soon as you formally complain.
But I still think you have cause to sue them for emotional damage to your son. I think a 'no win no fee' solicitor would be happy to take this case on for you for free !

[New Judge]

Apart from suing them it may also be a useful tool with which to get this ridiculous matter discontinued. It's scarcely yours or your son's fault that the police have to be "seen to be doing something" just because the allegation has religious overtones. They need to ensure that the course of action they are taking complies with the law. Cautions are available to allow people who are clearly guilty of an offence and accept that avoid a prosecution taking place. It is extremely arguable (from what you have told us) that your son has come anywhere near to committing an offence.

[hammerman]

Good luck MF....absolutely shocking. I'd be complaining to the police that some weird woman was taking photos of children in the local park!!!!!