Firearms debate........suicide in gun shop?

[ianess]

A tragic incident in a gun shop in Aberdeen yesterday, click here for details, seems to have been kept out of the national news.
Does this incident reinforce the case for a total ban on firearms?

[WaldoMcFroog]

To be honest, not really - and I'm broadly in favour of gun control.

It reads to me as though this was someone who wanted to kill himself and therefore if it hadn't have been a gun, it would have been a train or paracetamol or whatever.

Society is never going to be able to stop a determined suicide any way, and this was a highly unusual way of doing it. It's not as though the need to stop suicides has ever been a major driver behind any calls for gun legislation.

Frankly, the most awful aspect of this case is that another suicide has taken it upon himself to traumatise an innocent party in their desparation to die. Obviously, I'm not a suicidal person or perhaps I might feel differently, but I can never understand why these people who feel their own lives are so worthless can also manage to be so dismissive of the poor sods whose trains they jump under etc.

[Pippa68]

In my view, not really. If someone really wants to commit suicide then they can do it by any means. Any object in the wrong hands can be dangerous or fatal ~ knives, screwdrivers or painkillers.

I am not a gun 'fan' but they are neccessary for some people, & a worthwhile hobby for some. These people are the ones who generally don't have accidents, kill themselves or shoot others. It's a toughie.

[Pippa68]

Sorry WaldoMcFroog, we must have posted at the same time, & thanks for adding some points that I agree with too (regarding the trauma to others).

If I ever wanted to top myself I would do it away from anyone ~ but then there is always someone who is going to find you & suffer the consequences! as you say, not being in that kind of mind it is difficult to judge.

[undercovers]

total ban no? a ban on giving loaded firearms to people walking into shops YES!

Why would you give someone a loaded gun to have a look at? lucky the shop keeper didn't get shot instead really -

[Drusilla1S]

On my visits to the States with my ex husband, it was made clear that customers were not allowed to load guns in the shop. Why hand a loaded weapon to a potential robber?

I think the shop owner could be in trouble over this as I'm sure the laws in Scotland are more stringent than those in the USA. I hope the authorities accept he has suffered enough, but ensure he improves his safety management in said shop.

As for suicides, I think it's fair to say that a suicidal person rarely has the empathic capacity to assess the impact of their actions on others. I think those last moments must be incredibly lonely and full of self absorption.

[newtron]

The person must have loaded the gun himself. As Drusill1S pointed out, in the US, if you ask to see a gun in a gun shop, it will definitely not be loaded, and you can get in a lot of trouble if you bring a loaded gun into the shop.

To answer your question, no, I don't think so.

[madein1978]

Guns should only be sold to people that have a legitimate use for them. As far as I'm concerned they should have been banned 10 years ago when the Dunblane massacre happened, look at all the things that have went down since. I know its difficult to enforce, we have the black market and so on, but I rather thought that what the police were for, we pay enough in taxes to keep them!

[Drisgirl]

I would absolutely guarantee that any reputable GunShop owner would not hand over a loaded gun to anyone.Stringent measure are in force in Scotland for a shotgun license -metal locked cupboard,full check of your police record,if any,then a home visit by a high ranking officer along woth a colleague.

If you were to open a shop then I cant even envisage what the criteria would be.

My thoughts go out to the shopkeeper and the family of the man who didnt think life was worth living any longer.Tremendous shock for all.

[Drisgirl]

78-as you said re Dunblane (although I would like you rather not have to refer to it) Hamilton and the ilk would be able to get a firearm on the blackmarket.I believe Hamilton had had his firearms license recinded and that was part of his grievance against society.Do you honestly think all those drug runners/dealers/underworld gangsters have tootled along to their local polis station and asked for a license.

ianess - you cant ban them for the reasons above - I think (although it doesnt apply in this case) that police should be armed with more than CS gas and that gun thing (cant remember the name offhand) which incapacitates people.That may act as a deterrent as the crooks have the upper hand at the moment and dont they know it.

[laurence2]

ianess, i agree with most of the post and don't believe in a total ban on firearms.

ps, i drive trains for a living {23years} and count myself lucky that i,ve not had a jumper {suicide}, but its quite common on the railways yet this goverment are trying to block payments to drivers who finish up not driving again due to the stress/guilt factor,their reason for stopping this payment, its part of the job in so many words

[campbellking]

This case reminds me of an incident around twelve years ago in our area where a local G.P. was taken to task by the G.M.C. for approving of a gun licence application for a patient with known suicidal tendencies. However, as the patient commited suicide by taking an overdose, and not by shooting himself, he got off with a mild rebuke.

[sako 243]

as a holder of both a firearms and shotgun certificate i see no need for a firearms ban.this man could have committed suicide any number of ways but to subject the shopkeeper to this was a very selfish act and maybe shows the extreme frame of mind he was in.i can only assume he had his own ammunition as he should never have got both at the same time unless purchasing both.when incidents like this,hungerford and dunblane happen there is a hysteria to rid the streets of arms.the course of action usually taken is to make it more difficult for the (mostly)law abiding owners who go through all the rigmarole to obtain them,for sporting and pastime purposes.there efforts instead should be more directed to the arms being used in police shootings(last week)and by the gangs of dealers in most of our city at the moment.until they tackle this head on they will keep persecuting the people who bother to hold them legally as we are an easier target than the ones who shoot back

[madein1978]

Of course the gangsters have no gun licence, they have obtained their artillery by very illegal means, I would have imagined. I would have thought that these people should have been top priority for the police to get off the streets. But things don't seem to work like that, gang bosses being friends with the Chief Constable and things like that, which is why things don't happen to the big gangs. I still stick firm though to my opinion that ordinary people have no need to possess a gun, only farmers and police are the only people that actually need a gun, and something does need done so that psychotic nutcases like Thomas Hamilton find it extremely difficult to get hold of a gun.

[madein1978]

Suicide is an extremely selfish thing to do anyway, by any means, but to involuntarily involve some in it such as that poor shopkeeper, is quite despicable, and by such gruesome and graphic means. Depending on the way the shopkeeper is, the person that committed the suicide, he may have killed two people, the shopkeeper may never be able to work again, or face people.

[kick3m0n]

Laurence - I always feel terribly sad for any train driver who hits a suicide. My heart really goes out to them and I can absolutely understand why many feel they can never go back to that job. I hope you will never have to go through that.

[laurence2]

kick, thank for that, its alot worst come the school holidays tho as having children myself you dread the thought of running a child over

[margaret124]

to undercovers, he was in the shop -asked to see a gun while the shopkeeper turnaway he loaded the gun himself with bullets he took from his pocket -very sad situation

[rom]

i agree with madein1978, i have lived in Dunblane most of my life and have seen the devastation guns in the wrong hands can cause. he did have a grudge against society the gun laws need to be tightened up ALOT.

[Drisgirl]

rom-If they are desperate enough they will get the guns,heroin,crack cocaine,child pornography,money by terrorising people,their kicks by raping old women.

Sorry for being so graphic but that is the society we live in.Its not just guns.I actually feel for the Police because they are in a lose/lose situation - how can they be on top of all that particularly when its underground.

I do appreciate your feelings however, living where you do,because I have no doubt whatsoever it has touched you personally.What a sick world we live in.

[madein1978]

The moral of the story being, don't vote Labour!!!