Women and building sites.

[Ducati]

Listening to Radio London last night one of the phone ins was about encouraging women to become builders: a guy phoned in and, I thought quite reasonably, said the vast majority of women weren't upto the physical rigours of the job - his example was moving a ton of plasterboard (bit by bit obviously). Anyway, the female presenter was bordering on the furious because he had the temerity to say that there was something that men could do better than women.

 

But surely he's right, isn't he? I'm all for equality in the work place, and I think the glass ceiling is abhorrent, BUT, there are things that men can do better than women, and of course, vice versa.

 

Why would this silly woman take such umbrage at a perfectly reasonable and sensible comment?

[magicdice]

equality between the sexes is flawed in principle. yes, i should have equal rights to all you men (well, just as soon as they decide i'm old enough to have a political opinion that matters!), equal rights works just fine. but there are physical and mental differences between women and men - for example, (beware! sweeping generalisations to follow!) men have better spatial awareness than women, and are physically stronger, and generally more logical too. however there are some areas of life where women are better equipped to cope.

it is a reasonable and sensible comment, but let's call it sexist and prejudiced because we can. like i'm obviously highly prejudiced against women because i think that in general men are more logical than us - it's not at all related to the fact that most mathematicians and scientists are male! (at a recent uni open day for maths, i was one of 3 girls amongst about 30 blokes)

[Lillabet]

Ducati - the man on the phone in said that the vast majority of women aren't physically capable of being builders. I would agree. Where we differ however is that you seem to take this as an argument that we shouldn't encourage any women to go into these types of jobs.

As magicdice said her response was made up of sweeping generalisations. Please note that I am disagreeing with you without calling you sexist or prejudiced.

Generally as a whole population men can run faster and are physically stronger. However there are women who are physically stronger and far more physically capable than most men. There are lots of guys who wouldn't be physically fit to work on a building site - but no-one suggests we don't advertise for those who are capable.

As an example, if we were picking teams for a relay race from a group of men and women and Paula Radcliffe was in the group - you can bet she'd be your first choice ahead of all the regular blokes...

 I see no problem in aiming any advert at both genders. If a woman can perform as well as a man then fantastic - if the best candidate is female then that is who you should appoint.

There are professions which are heavily dominated by men or by women. I would disagree entirely though that this is an absolute obeying some kind of unwritten law of gender.

[Lillabet]

Continued:

Yes there are subjects such as maths and sciences that are male dominated - have you ever considered magicdice, that men might do better in spatial tests because from the start they are given toys that encourage this type of thinking, then go on to study the subjects that train you in this type of reasoning? It is at least as likely to be nurture not nature.

Only a couple of decades ago law was as male dominated as science is today. Now more women than men take law degrees. The argument used to be that law was a male subject about logic and scientific style reasoning. This has been shown to be untrue.

I believe in a 'from each according to their ability' approach. I could not and would not want to be be a builder. Some women are capable though - so why shouldn't they pursue this as a career?

[FP]

I was going to post something very similar to Lillabet, but she has put it so well that I now can't add anything.

[brachiopod]

I'll second that, FP.

(whoops, another 'unnecessary interjection' ?)

[ludwig]

Women are definately better at multi-tasking. My wife can put on her makeup and crash the car both at the same time.

[Octavius]

My girlfriend would be a rubbish cartographer and explorer.

[Ducati]

Ah yes, multi-tasking - the skill of doing more than one thing at a time badly, as opposed to concentrating on one thing and doing it properly!

[Miss Zippy]

I'd also agree with Lillibet on the nature v. nurture reasons for why men traditionally have appeared to be more able at technical subjects like maths and engineering etc. I don't think that men are more logical than women as magicdice believes and I've certainly not seen any evidence of that in my career! Traditionally, girls simply weren't (aren't?) encouraged in 'technical' subjects; even when I was at school choosing my GCSE options, I was encouraged to take geography rather than CDT (which I wanted to take).  It's easy to forget too that it was only in the late 60s that we moved towards a system of mass higher education meaning that a university education was open, in theory, to everyone. Without a university education, women simply could not enter the professions. To answer your question though Ducati, I wouldn't argue that your average man is physically stronger than your average woman but this doesn't necessarily mean that a man would make a better brickie that a woman, as I don't think 'strength' comes into it, but fitness and stamina do. I would have thought that a woman who is fit and has stamina is just as capable of lugging some bricks and plasterboard a building site as a man. 

[Glossopswift]

It's all very well saying the glass ceiling is abhorent, but I think the client is right in any construction project and if it's glass they want then so be it.

[ICEMANSAV]

I'm all for it, it would make a change seeing a busty blond falling off a ladder on a TV compensation ad than a balding middle aged bloke!

[kaktus]

Well said Lillabet and Miss Zippy!!!

[smudge]

Hear, hear, Lillabet & Miss Zippy & in addition to your brilliant posts - When in Cyprus a couple of years ago, my husband & I stood & watched, women up & down ladders, hodding, bricklaying & laying tiles on a roof! It was amazing to watch them tirelessly working alongside the men. They worked just as hard as the next person & no one batted an eye lid.

Must be all that Olive Oil they use!