History1 min ago
The Pope And Freedom Of Speech
Do you agree with the Pope, that freedom of speech should have limits?
He is reported to have said:
"...religions had to be treated with respect, so that people's faiths were not insulted or ridiculed"
To illustrate his point, he told journalists that his assistant could expect a punch if he cursed his mother.
Leaving aside the glorious image of the Pope 'doing a Naomi Campbell' - what are your feelings on this?
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He is reported to have said:
"...religions had to be treated with respect, so that people's faiths were not insulted or ridiculed"
To illustrate his point, he told journalists that his assistant could expect a punch if he cursed his mother.
Leaving aside the glorious image of the Pope 'doing a Naomi Campbell' - what are your feelings on this?
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I don't think that freedom of speech should have limits imposed on it, although the ideal is that people don't feel a drive to say insulting things. In particular I object strongly to the Pope's use of the word "cannot". Of course we can, otherwise it's not freedom of speech. He surely meant "should not" -- and even then he's probably wrong. What he really ought to be saying is "I'd rather you didn't...", in which case, well, tough, organised religion deserves some level of ridicule.
He should, of course, be free to say that freedom of speech should have limits!
He should, of course, be free to say that freedom of speech should have limits!
This is being discussed here...
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... but it's not a bad idea to introduce it in 'News'.
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... but it's not a bad idea to introduce it in 'News'.
"...but in a non-offensive way."
In the first place it depends on what you mean by "offensive". Evidently there are some religious people who draw offence even when you attempt to discuss the subject at all. The most recent edition of Charlie Hebdo essentially amounts to depicting Muhammed as something of a peacemaker, which seems fairly respectful to me; and yet even then some Muslims drew offence and felt that it was inflammatory.
To express a desire that religions be debated in a non-offensive way is fine, and understandable, but it can't be enforced or imposed and should remain down to choice. If people want to criticise and ridicule religion, they should be free to make that choice. This is what I mean by saying that the Pope's call ought to be "Please don't criticise religions in this way, I'd rather you didn't," as opposed to his actual choice of words, "you cannot insult other faiths," which has a completely different sense.
In the first place it depends on what you mean by "offensive". Evidently there are some religious people who draw offence even when you attempt to discuss the subject at all. The most recent edition of Charlie Hebdo essentially amounts to depicting Muhammed as something of a peacemaker, which seems fairly respectful to me; and yet even then some Muslims drew offence and felt that it was inflammatory.
To express a desire that religions be debated in a non-offensive way is fine, and understandable, but it can't be enforced or imposed and should remain down to choice. If people want to criticise and ridicule religion, they should be free to make that choice. This is what I mean by saying that the Pope's call ought to be "Please don't criticise religions in this way, I'd rather you didn't," as opposed to his actual choice of words, "you cannot insult other faiths," which has a completely different sense.
It's a 2 way thing SP. I promise to respect any religion as long as they respect my right to not go along with their fairy tales. This includes not murdering innocent people for having a different view.
Naomi forget criticism, it's worse than that, with Islam they take the very fact that you are not a muslim as offensive and punishable by death.
Naomi forget criticism, it's worse than that, with Islam they take the very fact that you are not a muslim as offensive and punishable by death.
The Saudi government certainly seem to think that it should be limited. This poor chap, Raif Badawi, faces 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes, the first 50 of them to be administered today, for having the temerity to write a blog they didn't agree with.
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As a principle Free Speech has no limits. As a practical reality I can't see anyone genuinely believing in total freedom of speech. Ultimately there are responsibilities that supercede rights.
Religions need not be treated with more respect than the normal act of being polite. It is difficult to agree a limit when one is arguing a genuinely held belief that the other guy is off their rocker. But arguments are always more convincing when stated calmly.
I think there is a common decency principle regarding remaining polite if you can, and so one can sympathise with the idea of a limit of some sort; but agreeing where that limit should lie, and what is appropriate action to take if breached, is not something easily done.
To advocate violence as an appropriate response to having one's mother cursed shows an extreme view IMO. If the Pope suggested this was right. then he ought to sit on his infallible seat and reconsider with the help of his God's guidance.
Religions need not be treated with more respect than the normal act of being polite. It is difficult to agree a limit when one is arguing a genuinely held belief that the other guy is off their rocker. But arguments are always more convincing when stated calmly.
I think there is a common decency principle regarding remaining polite if you can, and so one can sympathise with the idea of a limit of some sort; but agreeing where that limit should lie, and what is appropriate action to take if breached, is not something easily done.
To advocate violence as an appropriate response to having one's mother cursed shows an extreme view IMO. If the Pope suggested this was right. then he ought to sit on his infallible seat and reconsider with the help of his God's guidance.
Of course I have respect for people and their right to believe in anything they want.
I do however struggle to respect anybody that follows Islam and defend it, it is a religion of despicable acts of savagery and by being a Muslim you surely agree with the writing in the Koran and support these beliefs.
I do however struggle to respect anybody that follows Islam and defend it, it is a religion of despicable acts of savagery and by being a Muslim you surely agree with the writing in the Koran and support these beliefs.
It should be remembered that in the past the Roman Catholic church has put people to death or persecuted them if they did not convert to the Roman Catholic religion so they are in no position to criticize anyone else.
Also they were not so keen on "freedom of speech" when Galileo wanted to say the Earth went round the Sun and not the reverse. They threatened to put him in prison, and when he agreed to their demands they only put him under house arrest.
Seems to me the various religions want to put a glass screen around themselves, making it impossible to criticize or satirize them, yet everyone and everything else it fair game for it.
For example why should there be a blasphemy law?. All religions are "man made" so why cant they be questioned like every other person or organization.
Also they were not so keen on "freedom of speech" when Galileo wanted to say the Earth went round the Sun and not the reverse. They threatened to put him in prison, and when he agreed to their demands they only put him under house arrest.
Seems to me the various religions want to put a glass screen around themselves, making it impossible to criticize or satirize them, yet everyone and everything else it fair game for it.
For example why should there be a blasphemy law?. All religions are "man made" so why cant they be questioned like every other person or organization.
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