The cancer patient that is Celtic culture

[Seabedsurfer]

I mean is anyone else annoyed that the Celtic culture in the U.K., following in the clawed footsteps of the dinosaurs, is now only found in a museum. I mean the Celts in the U.K. always came off worse. Died in the famine in Ireland's case, parcelled off in coffin ships to the New World in the Highlands' case etc etc. What was it about the Celts that made they, their language and their culture incompatible with the modern world?? If their languages hadn't receded to outside influences there'd be millions of speakers of these beautiful tongues today right on our doorstep today.

[jno]

the Romans, followed by the Anglo-Saxons, were just stronger, and the Celts were driven to the margins of Britain. The language and culture went with them. History is full of cultures suppressed by military defeat. But they weren't exterminated, and the culture hasn't entirely vanished, just changed, along with everyone else's.

[joko]

they weren't 'parcelled off', they left by choice because they wanted a better life.

famines sometimes just happen, you can't blame england or anyone else - not even ireland - for the potato famine!

these things just happen, cultures recede because the people leave or die - there were less people left to keep up the old ways.

the old languages weren't so practical when moving to another country who don't understand it, so they adapted.

you make it sound like the world is against the celts in a conspiracy!

[F1fan]

You can't blame England for Ireland's potato blight of the 19th century,but you can blame it for the famine that ensued.
If the Irish had been allowed keep their own lands,instead of being colonised,and if they hadn't been forced to export the abundence of other crops they produced,so many people would not have died/been forced to emigrate.

[noxlumos]

Sorry to burst your bubble about the famine in Ireland joko but it was purposefully made as bad as possible by the Govt in England at the time.True they didn't actually cause the famine, but they had jurisdiction over the people of Ireland at that time and set up a series of strident measures to effectively eliminate the Irish Catholic people which some actually view today as a planned holocaust.The Brits adopted a policy of laissez faire because although Ireland was producing a grain crop sufficient to feed the whole Island, it continued to be exported because the Brits weren't going to lose their cash cow just to feed a load of hungry people whose land they were occupying.

They very much were parcelled off as 2 million of them had been allowed to die of disease and starvation whilst the remainder of people left were so ill and utterly penniless that they were unfit for work and thus unable to pay their rents and a huge mass eviction took place whereby people were thrown out of their homes and their dwelling set on fire.There were vagrants all over Ireland, rounded up and shipped off to the USA and Canada who arrived in such an appalling condition that the Canadian authorities who had been paid to take them sent letters to the Crown stating that it was a disgrace to God and they would take no more people in this condition.I could go on endlessly but you'd be more fulfilled reading this link. It really makes shocking reading to most non Irish people.

http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_1.html

[F1fan]

100% right noxlumos,well put.

[joko]

er...my bubble??? this isn't a history lesson about famine and settlers!

the question was asked specifically about why the celts ways were supposedly incompatable with the rest of the world, and the world was therefore against them

i was simply stating this isn't and wasn't the case

and as i said no one caused the famine - it just happened.

the english took full advantage of the famine, yes, but they would have done to any country or culture - as they have done many times through out the world and throughout history - my point was that the english didn't strive to wipe out all celtic culture, simply because it was celtic - which is what was seeming to be claimed, (and was what the question was actually about) it happened because the english are arrogant b'stards who thought the whole world belonged to them and wanted rid iof anyone who wasn't english - and the loss of celtic culture was a by-product of wars and colonisation.

the english tried to wipe out or take over every country it came across - not just scotland and ireland.

[noxlumos]

Sorry joko, you said people "were not parcelled off they left by choice because they wanted a better life." That is grossly inaccurate. I was merely correcting that because it's offensive to me as an Irishman to let such a misleading statement stand.

True enough the Brits treated all of their ocupied countries very badly, but we were talking about the treatment of Celtic nations and in this instance Ireland in particular.In no other country was there such a cynical attempt at mass genocide and forced exile as there was in Ireland for purely political/financial reasons, so yes it was an attempt at the destruction of the Celtic Nations by Britain pure and simple.

[KOPFILE]

go on the paddies

[Seabedsurfer]

The Irish famine was an unspeakable tragedy, Noxlumos, & it seems that English ignorance and malice did greatly perpetuate and exacerbate the problem. But one cannot (and not that I am saying you are) tarnish all the English or Protestant forces with the same brush for there are some touching examples of genuine love to those in strife such as the huge mill they built in Sion Mills that saved thousands of people in Donegal from starvation (by giving them a source of income). And one must admit that the Itish of today have little to no interest in seeing their language spoken again as a native tongue in green Eire.

[F1fan]

"And one must admit that the Itish of today have little to no interest in seeing their language spoken again as a native tongue in green Eire."
How do you make that one out Seabed??
The Gael Scoileanna in Ireland have never been more popular,the interest in Irish culture and heritage is strong as ever,and while only a small percentage may currently have Irish as a mother-tongue,it's not because of "no interest".

[SKCOLL]

It's scary that anyone can say that Celtic Culture is now only found in a museum.

I am a member of a body trying to preserve and promote all the Celtic languages (not just Scotland & Ireland - Breton, Cornish....). I am also a member of a local charity where I grew up (Inner Hebrides) which was founded in part to preserve the music, songs, tales from their history. Where I grew up they speak a version of Gaelic that is different to the Island next to us - and they are proud of it.

Celtic culture wasn't and isn't incompatible with the Modern world - just look at some of the inventions that came from Scottish thinkers and inventors. The English just tried to "assimilate" and demolish the culture because it wasn't theirs and it would help conquer the people if they were left with no identity.

So many people are still rightly proud of their Celtic roots whereas what English people did in the past should be a source of shame.

Are you just trying to be inflammatory or does this lead somewhere?

[SKCOLL]

Having just searched the site for "Seabedsurfer" I am now intrigued after reading the previous posts!

[noxlumos]

Seabedsurfer, at no point did I even begin to suggest that all Protestants or all English people did nothing to alleviate the famines. There were many individual acts of kindness, doubtless more than any of us will ever be aware of.

I do however take issue with your comments about the Irish language. It's alive and well thanks very much and spoken by a huge number of people both in Ireland (in the Gaeltacht and beyond) and abroad.It is taught in schools to children from the age they start school until they leave (13 years altogether) with the aim of having a billingual nation. I live in England at the moment and all of my children speak it fluently because we have bothered to teach them as it's part of their cultural identity.In Eire it's becomming more common by the day with frequent fstivals of Irish language, literature and so forth. It's a long haul back to it being the main language as English is spoken so widely in other countries but it's very well supported and very much alive.

[morg_monster]

I have nothing to add to the main thread of the post (except that The Star of the Sea by Joseph O'Connor is an excellent book (fiction) based in the time of the potato famine) but I'm intrigued to know why Seabedsurfer likens Celtic culture to a cancer patient?

[joko]

fair enough noxlumos, i should have worded it differently. I am from liverpool,but my parent are irish, so i do have an interest to.

what I meant was they left by choice - they wanted to go to america - but the choice was made because they had been forced to live in poverty - obviously thye would have preferred to stay in ireland had things been different. what i mean was they weren't forcibly thrown onto the ships.- or are you saying they were?

yes it was deliberate destruction of the celtic nations but it was political and financial, it was about wanting the land etc for themselves - not because they simply didn't like irish culture - the fact that it was full of irish people and culture was irrelevant to the english - had ireland been naturally populated with chinese people, they would have had the same treatment.

[noxlumos]

hi joko, yes that is exactly what I am saying many of them were literally rounded up and forcibly made to board ships, very often families were even seperated. If you check any decent work on the famine you'll find that it was quite common, that was where I had issue with your post, you gave the impression that it was all voluntary when in fact people were herded like cattle often totally against their will.

[Seabedsurfer]

Thanks for the posts :-). Your enthusiasm to maintain and promote the cultural heritage is apparent. However, your comments stating that the Celtic languages are alive is not supported by statistics. Both Irish and Scots Gaelic are on UNESCO's endangered languages with the report stating that, "ENDANGERED [in the Republic of Ireland; EXTINCT in Northern Ireland] " (http://www.un.org/works/culture). My Irish friends are all aware of the language and all learnt it in school but none have used it since then. I described Celtic culture as a cancer patient because I thought it would catch your eyes more than, "Are the Celts dead; please raise your hand if your need more paper". P.S. SKCOLL, is the charity you work have a website? P.P.S. I WROTE THIS POST BECAUSE I THINK IT'S LAMENTABLE THAT GOD GAVE US ALL THESE CUTLURES AND LANGUAGES AND YET ANGLO-SAXONISM IS STEAM-ROLLING THE ENTIRE PLANET.