Does Israel endanger our lives, the new rogue state?

[David Black]

I look at the Mid East and see the carnage caused by Israels generals who seem to want to plunge the world into war and get the feeling that Israel's response to violence is totally out of proportion.

The relentless escallation of their response, because they have more guns and tanks, seems destined to result in bombings outside the Mid East.

I am not sure why Western europe and North America should be put at risk by this "Rogue" state.

What is your view?

[Booldawg]

We've let Israel become this dangerous due to not imposing the same strict regulations regarding arms embargos that other middle eastern countries have to adhere to. This is partly due to the heavy commercial and political weight they have in the US, combined with a very powerful propaganda machine created by the holocaust. And of course because they're not Muslims.

[Loosehead]

"....... who seem to want to plunge the world into war...."

So who started it then? When you sow the wind you reap the whirlwind. Israel is communicating with the terrorists in the only language they understand.

[JudgeJ]

I seem to recall that the current unrest started in 1948 when huge numbers of Palestinian Arabs were forcibly removed from what was then part of Palestine, to create the state of Israel. Yes, I know that it is argued that the Jews were expelled by the Romans round about the first Century. But the more recent events, and the effect they had on their immediate ancestors, are understandably fresher in the minds of the current inhabitants of that wretched area.

I�ll not argue over the rights or wrongs of the 1948 events, but the situation in the Middle East will never be properly resolved whilst the Arabs see what they perceive as such a gross injustice being allowed to prevail. Sixty years should be long enough for things to settle down. However, some people tend to get a little emotional when they are forcibly ejected from their homes and their country. Unless attitudes change (on both sides) it could easily be another 1.900 years before peace is properly restored.

[Dom Tuk]

The propaganda machine that is the US and UK govt and its press would also have us believe that an Iranian nuclear option is a NO No. In fact a nuclear Iran will equalise the situation. No they wont bomb the israelis because that will result in their country being nuked by the israelis too (there is enough scope to retaliate). But what it will do is show the Israelis that the tables have now turned and they no longer call all the shots. A well armed neighbour is good enough deterrent to the Israeli terrorists. That will force the israli terrorist state on to the table where they will have to talk with their strong neighbours. Equally the muslim neighbours will realise that annhilation of the jewish state is a non starter and that they will have the opportunity to live with them on equal terms. note when i mean Israeli i am fully aware that a significant proportion of their citizens do not agree with the roughshod terrorist tactics of their govt.

[Lonnie]

Just as a discussion point, would you call Hezbollah and Hamas, Rogue organisations?.

Not forgetting that the present crisis was instigated by them continually harrassing the state of Israel.

I agree that Israel has gone over the top this time, but how much were they supposed to take?.

Not forgetting, that we are on the outside, looking in, and its too easy for us to pass judgement+s

[JudgeJ]

As per my earlier answer, Lonnie, I consider that the �present crisis� has been ongoing since 1948 with little prolonged respite despite one or two occasional lulls. This latest episode is just another twist in that ongoing crisis.

[Loosehead]

The thing about this though Judge is that for several years Lebannon has been peacefully getting on with things and Israel has left them too it. Now they decide to wind up Israel and start the whole thing off. Presumably encouranged by Hamas in the South. Now the ordinary Lebanese people are having to pay the price for the terrorist nutters in their midst. You are correct about the whole 1948 issue but I think in this case it's a clear example of unnecessarily poking the sleeping giant.

[ugly_bob]

Israel can't be wrong. George W is supporting them, so they must be in the right. After all, we all know how level headed and anti-war Georgey is!

[maxximus]

it would seem that there is a crowd that is spending to much time reading their newspapers. the fact is the israeli government were violating lebanese airspace and sending there soldiers across the lebanese border kidnapping lebanese citizens before hezbollah kidnapped any soldiers. the reason the soldiers were taken was to retaliate for this trangression. the propaganda machine seizes the hezbollah kidnapping, ignores the israeli wrong doings and repeditivley hammers us with "the soldiers, the soldiers"and starts viciously slaughtering innocent people and the world stands by debating it, a pretext to war by the united states of israel.

[jump79]

I think most of Lebanon will be bombed out by next week, unless Bush decides its time to intervene.

What I find really ridiculous is that Israel has no idea who or where the Hezbollah are hiding, it's just recklessly bombing a country to bits and killing innocent civilians in turn. There seems to be no plan or strategy at all in its choice of targets, just random recklessness.

[Playbill]

Israel knows the Hezbollah fighters deliberate hide among the civilian population in the south of Beirut. From here they launch rockets, cynically using their 'own' people as human shields or as camouflage. Israel has dropped leaflets on the city telling the civilians to avoid these areas. As to other damage caused to Lebanon, the airport has been bombed to stop military aircraft using it but as far as I am aware ONLY the runway. The control tower and other buildings were not targeted so they can be used again if and when peace is restored. If people think the Israeli military has been excessive in response to the terrorist attacks on their country they should be aware that they are in fact showing restraint. They have a huge amount more in reserve - and I do not mean nuclear.

[Lonnie]

I'll try and get things in order, if anyone diagree, thats fine, but please reply in the tone of 'judgej', civilly, (and judge, you have a very valid point, but not to be discussed here, take to long), starting with the Israeli withdrawal from Labanon six years ago, under United nations ruling, the Lebanese Army was supposed to move into the previously occupied territories, mainly to stop the the type of thing, (kidnapped soldiers, rockets etc), that has happened.

The fact that they didn't, and allowed Hezbollah to carry out these attacks, shows that they either coulldn't stop it, or didn't want to, I think the former, which really means surely, that Lebanon is not a Sovreign State, but a two nation state, one part ruled by the Lebanese Goverment, and the other part ruled by Hezbollah.

[cymrudiamond]

stick to the facts everyone. All one needs to do is research,read,and THINK for themselves instead of forfeiting that right by allowing the liberal media to shape/mold/form/control your opinions regarding this situation-or any other situation for that matter-for you. Care to remember last Sept. when Israel evacuated Gaza-completely? They did-look it up. Gaza is the 1st independent Palestinian territory in history. what did they do? -cont. the war,turn.Gaza into a base camp for launch. rockets into Israel-within 2 wks of gain. this status..&dug tunnels UNDER THE BORDER to conduct attacks much like the one killing 2 Israeli soldiers on 25June06 & took a wounded Israeli hostage-again, these facts are there. 2 wks later,this Lebanese terrorist org.;which by the way has representation in Lebanese Parliament /Cabinet,launched another attack into Israel on Wed. result. in deaths of 8 soldiers,wound.of 2others, taken back to Lebanon as hostages. Look it up. Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon in 2000,the UN verified this-again,these are only facts. Yet what happens next? Hezbollah did to South Lebanon just what Hamas did to Gaza: turned it into a military base& terrorist op.center from which CONTINUE the war against Israel. past 6 yrs Hezbollah has launched periodic raids/rockets into Israel;Israreli retaliation has led to the cessation of these provocations--til the next time Hezbollah felt like it. Well, I guess Wed. was it. Why? Because 'occupation' is an excuse to persuade the gullible,and historically ignorant West. to support the Arab cause against Israel.Issue is, and always has been, Israel's existance. THAT'S what's at stake here.. Hezbollah went looking for this fight/started this fight, and are now getting their asses kicked,well-good!

[sp1814]

Cymrudiamond - it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I'd like to put this to you...how did it all start?

Someone said on a post that Isreal was created after WW2 by carving up a bit of the Middle East which was already settled.

Sorry everyone - I know I sound ignorant, but is that the basis of what's going on now???

[jno]

yes sp1814 - JudgeJ's post is a good summary of what has happened. Jews have always wanted a state in what is now Israel, on the grounds that God told them they could have it, in Biblical times. After the Holocaust in the second world war, it was agreed (by Europeans in particular) that they'd better have it. (Given that the Holocaust was a German atrocity, it might have been fairer to give them a chunk of Germany - as the Iranian president recently suggested. But the Europeans didn't think of that.) So they were given Israel, and the Palestinians already living there were disposessed. Now they're the ones who want their home back. That's what groups like Hizbollah and Hamas are fighting for.

[sp1814]

Blimey!

jno - thanks for your response. I think I'll do a bit more reading on this.

[Dom Tuk]

sp1814...you are joking arent you??

[Lonnie]

Now we're going into the history of the area, it'd have been better to have stayed with the currant problem, but here's a potted history of the area.

In the beginning, as jno has said, God gave the land to the Jews, so they went and conquered it, driving the original inhabitants (Caananites) out.

The land was called Judea, it split into twin states, Judea and Israel, Israel was wiped out, leaving just Judea, which was conquered by the Romans, who eventually destroyed the country, and drove the inhabitants out.

After the Romans left, approx 300 years after Jesus, until then, there were no Arabs in the country, came Mohamet, who united the Arabs, and went on an empire building spree themselves.

This is how the Arabs came to be there, the Romans had called the land Palestine, which was a mispronounciation of Philistine, (the original Philistines were not of Middle Eastern stock.

From that time, until the formation of the new state of Israel, there was not a country there, until now, there has never been a state of Palestine.

As to who are the rightful owners of the land, I leave that to you, but as I said, thats just a potted history, there's much, much more.

[Dom Tuk]

This should give you are very good idea of what happened and our involvement in the whole sorry mess.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli _War

[maxximus]

again, i say the biblical era is irrelevent, by that standard the americans should go back to britain and we would be shuffling people all over the world, it's ridiculous. there were at least seven tribes there when the jews showed up the caananities being one of them the philistines being another. the problem is there were arabs living there (in the modern relevent era) for generations, and they did get disposessed of their ancestral land, as they were still living on it. this is the problem not being addressed. as lonnie says there is much more to it, but it does not change the fact that although more arabs piled in when the jews started coming, the ones that were there all along did lose what was rightfully their's.