ChatterBank4 mins ago
Selling alcohol to underaged
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My daughter started working on the checkouts of a local Supermarket on Monday. I went to pick her up from work tonight and she has been fined for selling alcohol to an underaged boy who was sent in to the store by the police. Whilst I am willing to pay the fine (she can't afford to yet and the fine has to be paid within 21 days) I feel that she should just have got a caution, due to the fact that she had only been working on the checkout for three days. I suppose that everyone will say that she should have asked for ID, but everyone makes mistakes and she is really upset about it. What do you think?
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Whilst I do feel sorry for her and it's bad luck that she was caught out, I work part-time in a corner shop which sells acohol and we have a notice behind the counter that clearly states that it is the employee who will be liable to prosecution in cases like this.
Was she not briefed before starting or advised to always ask for ID if in doubt?
I've served people numerous times and then afterwards had doubts to their age - luckily none were send in by the police or trading standards!
Was she not briefed before starting or advised to always ask for ID if in doubt?
I've served people numerous times and then afterwards had doubts to their age - luckily none were send in by the police or trading standards!
The manager asked her if she had been told about asking for ID and she can't remember whether they told her or not. It's just the fact that she has only been there such a short time. She did say that she was going to ask him but then didn't. I have told her that in future she must ask if she's not sure and also if she is! I really feel for her at the moment because she thought I would be mad at her.
Kathyan
Whilst I sympathise, your daughter must be an adult - she has to be over 18 to sell alcohol, she is working and she made a mistake.
She can't say she did not know - every young adult knows you're supposed to be 18 to buy alcohol, and my guess is that she is in a better position to guage young peoples' ages than somebody much older.
She won't make that mistake again.
I don't think she should have got a caution - the law is very clear on this and she is not going to get a criminal record for it.
Whilst I sympathise, your daughter must be an adult - she has to be over 18 to sell alcohol, she is working and she made a mistake.
She can't say she did not know - every young adult knows you're supposed to be 18 to buy alcohol, and my guess is that she is in a better position to guage young peoples' ages than somebody much older.
She won't make that mistake again.
I don't think she should have got a caution - the law is very clear on this and she is not going to get a criminal record for it.
How old is your daughter?
Many supermarkets (from when i was a teenager) have a policy whereby the checkout operator has to have permission from a supervisor to sell alcohol.
We had to call someone back in my day but now, with the age of barcodes and computer systems, the tills stop and notify the checkout operator to check the person buying is old enough. They then check with a supervisor.
I do feel it is unfair that the supermarket puts all the blame onto the checkout operator when there are simple ways to stop this from happening.
Many supermarkets (from when i was a teenager) have a policy whereby the checkout operator has to have permission from a supervisor to sell alcohol.
We had to call someone back in my day but now, with the age of barcodes and computer systems, the tills stop and notify the checkout operator to check the person buying is old enough. They then check with a supervisor.
I do feel it is unfair that the supermarket puts all the blame onto the checkout operator when there are simple ways to stop this from happening.
Like naz and twain, I would have thought that the agent provocateur action of the police would at least prejudice, if not invalidate, any charge against your daughter in this particular case; sounds like very iffy practice to me. On the other hand, the law is clear that ID must be shown if the seller has any doubts about the age of the buyer, and to that extent she did - however unintentionally - contravene the law. I wonder what the position is if the seller genuinely thinks the buyer looks 18, even though he/she may not be?
The Home Office recognises and encourages the need for young people to make test purchases to secure conviction - for alcohol and tobacco. So it is pointless arguing 'agent provocateur'.
Test purchase surveys of premises conducted with the help of volunteer children have been organised by some local authorities as a last resort where they have found other measures ineffective in preventing sales to children.
It is understood that prosecutions using evidence thus obtained have normally succeeded and the child has not been required to appear in court.
Thus, the Home Office recognises a need for the use of volunteer children in test purchases 'whether or not with the intention of obtaining evidence for the prosecution' (para 38). In Annex A of their guidance, the Home Office provides a list of guiding principles for working with child volunteers and includes the option that the exercise is 'to obtain evidence to mount a prosecution in appropriate circumstances'.
In England Wales & Northern Ireland the need for test purchasing is acknowledged by the Home Office and law courts and supported by the police authorities. Since 1992, the use of children in test purchase exercises has become standard practice in many local authorities.
Test purchase surveys of premises conducted with the help of volunteer children have been organised by some local authorities as a last resort where they have found other measures ineffective in preventing sales to children.
It is understood that prosecutions using evidence thus obtained have normally succeeded and the child has not been required to appear in court.
Thus, the Home Office recognises a need for the use of volunteer children in test purchases 'whether or not with the intention of obtaining evidence for the prosecution' (para 38). In Annex A of their guidance, the Home Office provides a list of guiding principles for working with child volunteers and includes the option that the exercise is 'to obtain evidence to mount a prosecution in appropriate circumstances'.
In England Wales & Northern Ireland the need for test purchasing is acknowledged by the Home Office and law courts and supported by the police authorities. Since 1992, the use of children in test purchase exercises has become standard practice in many local authorities.
-- answer removed --
The Licencing Act 2003 states
152 Sending a child to obtain alcohol
(1) A person commits an offence if he knowingly sends an individual aged under 18 to obtain-
(a) alcohol sold or to be sold on relevant premises for consumption off the premises�
(4) Subsection (1) also does not apply where the individual aged under 18 is sent by-
(a) a constable, or
(b) a weights and measures inspector.
There is no entrapment, therefore.
152 Sending a child to obtain alcohol
(1) A person commits an offence if he knowingly sends an individual aged under 18 to obtain-
(a) alcohol sold or to be sold on relevant premises for consumption off the premises�
(4) Subsection (1) also does not apply where the individual aged under 18 is sent by-
(a) a constable, or
(b) a weights and measures inspector.
There is no entrapment, therefore.
i think it also depends on how old 'underage' is?
17and 3/4?
or 14?
if he was blantanly underage then she should know better and obviously wasn't doing her job properly.
however if he was 17 and 3/4, it is reasonable to assume she couldn't tell as she herself is very young and perhaps simmply hasn't yet developed the ability to guess anothers age correctly.
though you did mention she nearly asked him so he must have looked young
17and 3/4?
or 14?
if he was blantanly underage then she should know better and obviously wasn't doing her job properly.
however if he was 17 and 3/4, it is reasonable to assume she couldn't tell as she herself is very young and perhaps simmply hasn't yet developed the ability to guess anothers age correctly.
though you did mention she nearly asked him so he must have looked young
Yes I agree that she should have asked him if she wasn't sure. But, in her defence, it was only her second day of being on the checkout on her own. To have to pay an �80 fine is a lot and I think they should have used a bit of discretion and just cautioned her. I am not trying to get her off paying the fine, I'm just upset that it should have happened so soon after she started the job. Surely it's time that people buying (or trying to buy) alcohol should have to provide valid photo ID before it is rung up on the till?
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