Dogs, licensing & ownership

[Siamsal]

There's a very active question on the BBC's Have You Say, to the effect of "should the dog licensing laws be reintroduced, should owners have to prove they are able look after their dog properly before they get a licence"?

This is a follow-up to the dreadful attack on the baby by the two guard dogs, in Leicester.

So, what's ABers opinion on this?

[lankeela]

Licensing never has and never will make people look after their dogs properly. It is up to breeders to make sure they only breed dogs of correct temperament and sell them to responsible owners who will keep and train them in the proper manner.

I have a ten month old Rottweiler bitch and am dreading the flack I shall take from people who will consider all dogs of this breed should be put down because of this very unfortunate incident. It has taken many years for the breed to become accepted again after the very bad media hype that it attracted.

Breed specific legislation does not work. There are good and bad dogs in all breeds and good and bad owners and breeders.

Guard dogs should be licensed and kept in suitable conditions. These dogs should not have been allowed to go anywhere near any child.

Personally I would make all owners take a test before they are allowed to get a dog, covering the rearing, health and training of a dog. You only have to look at some of the unbelievably idiotic questions that are asked on this group to know there are people out there who should not be allowed to keep any animal.

[lankeela]

(1) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a person ('the handler') who is capable of controlling the dog is present on the premises and the dog is under the control of the handler at all times while it is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.

(2) The handler of a guard dog shall keep the dog under his control at all times while it is being used as a guard dog at any premises except:
(a) while another handler has control over the dog; or
(b) while the dog is secured so that it is not at liberty to go freely about the premises.

(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.


The owner of a guard dog may be liable for any injury to a person under s 2(2) of the Animals Act 1971, unless they come within one of the exceptions in s 5.

[Simeon]

You can legislate until the cows come home but once again if there's nobody to enforce it whats the point.

[kwicky]

For a dog to kill a child like this it is the owner who should be put down. Completely irresponsible! No one should be allowed to keep 2 dangerous dogs let alone one. The comments from children going to the nearby school says it all. If a dog appears too aggressive by the public it should be reported and acted upon not wait until a tradegy occurs.

[lankeela]

I agree, the owners should be prosecuted for keeping dangerous dogs.

[Annlinda]

So sad. But until the people who breed these killing machines are stopped nothing will change. I am a dog lover / show judge and would trust no dog even the best behaved with a child let alone a baby. The risk is always there not matter what the breed. To the lady who has a 10moth old rottie PLEASE go to dog training with a experienced trainer and never let the dog get away with bad behaviour

[lankeela]

I AM an experienced dog trainer.

I find your remark that 'people should be stopped from breeding these killing machines' very strange, coming from a dog lover/show judge. I too am a show judge, and would refuse to judge any dog that showed any sort of aggression. I suspect that these dogs never had any training or socialisation, and were encouraged to be aggressive as that was the image the owners wanted to potray to protect their pub. I doubt for one minute that the breeders intended them to be 'killing machines' .

[kita1]

Sadly no amount of legislation or licensing will stop these sort of things happening.

We have a young lad (16) who owns a male Staffie on our street. He has it off lead all the time, I have actually seen it attack a Jack Russell being walked by a girl of about 10. I phoned the police to be told there is nothing they can do until something actually happens (I presume they mean like someone is hurt or bitten!). We also have an old lady who walks an elderly Yorkie on the street. I KNOW what is going to happen, but nothing can be done to prevent it.

I really do not know what the answer is to this problem, but I do know that all the giant cross breeds eg Mastiff/Great Dane/Dogue that are currently being advertised in free ads papers and being bought by drug dealing youngsters make my blood run cold. As for the breeders being responsible, yes in an ideal world, but some of these cross breeds are being bred by 'farmers' in barns and sold as 'ideal guard dogs' for large sums of money, more expensive than pedigree dogs!

It has got so bad that I now carry a snooker cue and a choke chain as a defence when I walk my dog (and he is a giant guarding breed!).

[shaneystar2]

In Germany where I have relatives and friends they have a dog tax. The owners are regulated depending on the breed of the dog. Dogs seen as dangerous are subject to a higher tax which is very expensive and puts people off buying what could be classed as a dangerous breed of dog.
I think some sort of licencing should be reintroduced. Not only would it deter people from getting a dog to abuse and mistreat it may also prevent this sort of tragedy happening if people had to pay to own a dog.
A lady along the road from me had an English bulldog ..used to see her playing with it in the park ..recently, for no reason it turned on her and they had to stitch her hand back on .Needless to say the dog was destroyed.
I am a dog owner and would be quite happy to pay for the privilege.

[Annlinda]

lankeela
You find my remark that irresponsible people should be stopped breeding killing machines strange? Lets be honest certain breeds are killers,most terriers, greyhounds etc. Their purpose in life was to kill. Rotties are multifuctional, guard,herd and attack. My background in dog training is that I am a Kennel Club approved obedience judge to the highest level I meet many well trained dogs and their handlers I have trained my own dogs to the highest standard possible. What worries me is the assumption that you can trust any dog, given the right circumstances any dog can attack a child therefore I would NOT trust any dog alone with a child.When you say you wouldn't judge any dog that show aggression you must be in the minority,I have observed at breed shows the most vicious nasty animals being taken into the breed ring and just by sheer ringcraft kept under control, different matter outside the ring!!! Better to be safe than sorry. Enjoy your rottie keep on top of her and I am sure no-one will have cause to complain.

[lankeela]

You didn't say 'irresponsible' in your first post, you gave the impression that you meant anyone who breeds these 'killing machines'.

[kita1]

No animal is a 'machine'. To call any animal a 'killing machine' is likening it to a gun and implying that it never tires, gets ill etc.

Dogs have bad days too and are not 'machines'.

Judging obedience is very different to judging in the 'show' ring.

I have known dogs do well in obedience while in the ring yet are totally unreliable off lead amongst other dogs!

I have no doubt that these Rotties were looked after perfectly well and could well have passed any 'test' the owners took to allow THEM to keep the dogs. The OWNERS were on holiday and left the pub and the dogs in the care of their son. I do not know how used to the dogs he was, he was not the father of the child so probably did not know how the dogs would react to children.

It probably would have been better if the dogs had been put in kennels while the owners were on holiday - but then we have hindsight.

Licences would only work if you had to have the dog in your care ALL the time or leave it in registered kennels whilst away.

[Annlinda]

I rest my case in view of yet another young child savaged by a rottie as in todays(27/9/06) news.
If you have seen one of these dogs attack you must agree that "machine" comes to mind....I am making no further comment