ChatterBank2 mins ago
Has the USA corrupted the world?
This is a big topic so may lead to quite a discussion (I hope).
My question is "Has the USA corrupted the world?"
The reason I ask is that I picked up a book in one of those discount bookshops called "Who shot JFK" by Robin Ramsey.
This is not so much the story of the killing, but a pulling together of much of the information available on the case, and also briefly covers the killings of his brother Robert and of course Martin Luther King.
But it also covers the roles of the CIA, the FBI, the cold war with Russia, the Cuba crisis, the Vietnam war, Watergate and so on.
He looks at corruption in high places, and corruption in the various secret organizations in the USA.
He covers some of the underhand behaviour of the CIA in, for example, Italy, where the USA spent millions of dollars keeping the Italian Comminist party OUT of office.
But in doing so they gave the mafia a chance to get there claws into all parts of society, which has never been removed, making Italian society totally corrupt.
He even discusses the possibility that vice president Lyndon Johnson (and others) were behind the killing of JFK (after all the killing was down in the South, home of Johnson).
more........
My question is "Has the USA corrupted the world?"
The reason I ask is that I picked up a book in one of those discount bookshops called "Who shot JFK" by Robin Ramsey.
This is not so much the story of the killing, but a pulling together of much of the information available on the case, and also briefly covers the killings of his brother Robert and of course Martin Luther King.
But it also covers the roles of the CIA, the FBI, the cold war with Russia, the Cuba crisis, the Vietnam war, Watergate and so on.
He looks at corruption in high places, and corruption in the various secret organizations in the USA.
He covers some of the underhand behaviour of the CIA in, for example, Italy, where the USA spent millions of dollars keeping the Italian Comminist party OUT of office.
But in doing so they gave the mafia a chance to get there claws into all parts of society, which has never been removed, making Italian society totally corrupt.
He even discusses the possibility that vice president Lyndon Johnson (and others) were behind the killing of JFK (after all the killing was down in the South, home of Johnson).
more........
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continued....
(The day after JFK was killed Johnson signed a new document escalating the war in Vietnam, which JFK was in the process of running down).
As I read the book it occured to me that the USA (particularly the rich and powerful in the USA) are so paranoid about staying rich that they will stoop to almost anything to keep themselves utlra rich.
Even if it means starting a war in another country, killing political leaders from other countries, and even killing their own president.
They have been involved in almost all the wars and skirmishes in the last 50 years, and their multinational companies are in every country in the world.
So can it be said that the USA are corrupting the world?
(The day after JFK was killed Johnson signed a new document escalating the war in Vietnam, which JFK was in the process of running down).
As I read the book it occured to me that the USA (particularly the rich and powerful in the USA) are so paranoid about staying rich that they will stoop to almost anything to keep themselves utlra rich.
Even if it means starting a war in another country, killing political leaders from other countries, and even killing their own president.
They have been involved in almost all the wars and skirmishes in the last 50 years, and their multinational companies are in every country in the world.
So can it be said that the USA are corrupting the world?
So he reckons the USA is responsible for the Mafia in Italy because they spent lots of money keeping communists out?
Isn't that like arguing that the Marshall plan concentrated on rebuilding Europe rather than getting rid of the Kray brothers?
I'm sure if you read the book it's more convincing but it sounds absolutely barking in abstract!
Isn't that like arguing that the Marshall plan concentrated on rebuilding Europe rather than getting rid of the Kray brothers?
I'm sure if you read the book it's more convincing but it sounds absolutely barking in abstract!
>So he reckons the USA is responsible for the Mafia in Italy
I must admit he does not say mafia he just mentioned corruption so I took that to mean mafia.
But a search on "CIA Communist italy" found this site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_e lection,_1948
And that mention both the USA (and Russia) bribing politicians in Italy, and the web site says:
"The CIA's practice of buying political clout was repeated in every Italian election for at least the next 24 years"
So perhaps my mistake, not mafia, but certainly the CIA helped to create a corrupt Italian society.
I must admit he does not say mafia he just mentioned corruption so I took that to mean mafia.
But a search on "CIA Communist italy" found this site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_e lection,_1948
And that mention both the USA (and Russia) bribing politicians in Italy, and the web site says:
"The CIA's practice of buying political clout was repeated in every Italian election for at least the next 24 years"
So perhaps my mistake, not mafia, but certainly the CIA helped to create a corrupt Italian society.
And for completeness, here is one of a number of sites talking about LBJ killing JFK.
http://www.viewzone.com/lbj/
btw This was not a question about the killing of JFK, more a comment on how the killing of JFK fits into a wider picture of the corruption at the top of USA society.
The murder of Robert Kennedy, and of Martin Luther King, and things like Watergate, are all symptomatic of a society that is corrupt from the top down.
It could be argued that the invasion of Iraq by the USA also falls under that umberella.
After all, if they are so annoyed about corrupt leaders (like they were with Saddam) why not get Mugabe out?
http://www.viewzone.com/lbj/
btw This was not a question about the killing of JFK, more a comment on how the killing of JFK fits into a wider picture of the corruption at the top of USA society.
The murder of Robert Kennedy, and of Martin Luther King, and things like Watergate, are all symptomatic of a society that is corrupt from the top down.
It could be argued that the invasion of Iraq by the USA also falls under that umberella.
After all, if they are so annoyed about corrupt leaders (like they were with Saddam) why not get Mugabe out?
I don't have time at the moment to hunt for links (and so I could be just plain wrong), but I think the CIA's links with the mafia are fairly well attested, jake, and encouraged the growth of the cosa nostra both in the USA and in Italy after the war. This wasn't the direct intention (winning the war was), but if pressed I'm sure the Yanks would have said Italy would be better ruled by our chums in the mafia than by the communists.
The notion that LBJ was involved in Kennedy's killing was much discussed in the 60s, usually in the presence of much dope-smoking, but it didn't sound plausible then and doesn't now. LBJ eventually stood down from re-election because of opposition to the Vietnam war.
The notion that LBJ was involved in Kennedy's killing was much discussed in the 60s, usually in the presence of much dope-smoking, but it didn't sound plausible then and doesn't now. LBJ eventually stood down from re-election because of opposition to the Vietnam war.
PS VHG, the short answer to the Mugabe question is that the USA won't be taking on any black leaders anywhere - too unacceptable an image for domestic consumption. They wouldn't mind having a go at N Korea but the potential for global conflagration in east Asia is far too great. Medium-sized Arab despots are ok as targets, though.
I think you could make a very similar argument regarding British Colonialism in the 19th Century.
Perhaps that's the point.
Its actually colonialism that corrupts whether Good old fashioned European Colonialism of the 19th Century or Neo-colonialism as practised by America in the 20th/21st.
Remember who let Mugabe in!
Remember Britain assisted in the coup that established the Shah of Iran's father.
Britains part in the Opium wars where we pushed drugs to the Chinese and went to war to established our right to do it.
Interfering in other people's countries never ends well
Perhaps that's the point.
Its actually colonialism that corrupts whether Good old fashioned European Colonialism of the 19th Century or Neo-colonialism as practised by America in the 20th/21st.
Remember who let Mugabe in!
Remember Britain assisted in the coup that established the Shah of Iran's father.
Britains part in the Opium wars where we pushed drugs to the Chinese and went to war to established our right to do it.
Interfering in other people's countries never ends well
This is not very revelatory.
Superpowers have always looked after their own interests, and if that means meddling in other countries affair to reach their aims then so be it. The US and Russia certainly do it. The British probably invented it, and every power around the globe indulges in it.
It is not unknown for security services to act against its own citizen, and even to eliminate some of them.
Superpowers have always looked after their own interests, and if that means meddling in other countries affair to reach their aims then so be it. The US and Russia certainly do it. The British probably invented it, and every power around the globe indulges in it.
It is not unknown for security services to act against its own citizen, and even to eliminate some of them.
>The notion that LBJ was involved in Kennedy's killing
I have read books on and off about the thing since and have never before been convinced of any of the "solutions".
But I have to say the LBJ and a bunch of southern rich businessmen solution strikes me as more likely than most.
I have never felt the CIA or FBI could be directly involved as it would be too difficult to shut it up in those huge organizations.
The mafia would not be able to do it (on their own) as they could not control the lack of security around on the day for example.
But the South hated JFK ("wanted for treason" signs were put up around the city before JFK was due to do his tour).
LBJ was a partly discreditied politician (bribery charges) and could well have been up for various fraud charges in the future.
Remember a lot of what went on with Oswald went on down south (New Orleans etc).
The rich oil billionaires from the South could see JFK softening up on his strong pre election speeches, going soft on Russia, Cuba, the Vietnam war and so on.
I can certainly see a number of these rich oil barons getting together to bump him off while he was in their patch (much easier to cover it up in your own patch).
They could also control the security on the day (which was very light for the visit of a president).
It is the Malcolm Wallace link that points to LBJ (see my link above).
His fingerprint was in the book depository, and he had already committed murders in the south for rich people. He was a "friend" of LBJ and his cronies.
One of the people who Wallace murderdd was having an affair with LBJs sister (as was Wallace himself) so you cant get much closer to LBJ than that.
One of Wallace other friends was Billie Sol Estes, another "friend" of LBJ. Read about his scandal ridden life here <
I have read books on and off about the thing since and have never before been convinced of any of the "solutions".
But I have to say the LBJ and a bunch of southern rich businessmen solution strikes me as more likely than most.
I have never felt the CIA or FBI could be directly involved as it would be too difficult to shut it up in those huge organizations.
The mafia would not be able to do it (on their own) as they could not control the lack of security around on the day for example.
But the South hated JFK ("wanted for treason" signs were put up around the city before JFK was due to do his tour).
LBJ was a partly discreditied politician (bribery charges) and could well have been up for various fraud charges in the future.
Remember a lot of what went on with Oswald went on down south (New Orleans etc).
The rich oil billionaires from the South could see JFK softening up on his strong pre election speeches, going soft on Russia, Cuba, the Vietnam war and so on.
I can certainly see a number of these rich oil barons getting together to bump him off while he was in their patch (much easier to cover it up in your own patch).
They could also control the security on the day (which was very light for the visit of a president).
It is the Malcolm Wallace link that points to LBJ (see my link above).
His fingerprint was in the book depository, and he had already committed murders in the south for rich people. He was a "friend" of LBJ and his cronies.
One of the people who Wallace murderdd was having an affair with LBJs sister (as was Wallace himself) so you cant get much closer to LBJ than that.
One of Wallace other friends was Billie Sol Estes, another "friend" of LBJ. Read about his scandal ridden life here <
more.....
It is the fingerprint of Malcolm Wallace that ties LBJ in to the murder plot (some say the fingerprint was planted).
To me this seems the most "likely" plot. Not saying it IS what happened, but out of al the things that have been suggested this seems the most probable.
LBJ and some of his cronies sound pretty awful and were not above murder.
It is the fingerprint of Malcolm Wallace that ties LBJ in to the murder plot (some say the fingerprint was planted).
To me this seems the most "likely" plot. Not saying it IS what happened, but out of al the things that have been suggested this seems the most probable.
LBJ and some of his cronies sound pretty awful and were not above murder.
It chopped the end of my first append off
Billie Sol Eastes, "friend" of LBJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes
Billie Sol Eastes, "friend" of LBJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes
A quick scan of this looks as if the involvement of LBJ rests entirely on that fingerprint. The rest is pure conspiracy theory.
Others have different opinions on it
http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html for example
Although the trigger-housing fingerprints were "extremely faint and barely distinguishable" and "partially distorted," a positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald was made by Scalice. This is perhaps the most important finding made since the time of the assassination. It may now be stated as fact that the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald were left behind on the trigger housing of the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
I think personally I'd want to see a number of "Experts" match this to LBJ's man. Preferably "double-blind"
Others have different opinions on it
http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html for example
Although the trigger-housing fingerprints were "extremely faint and barely distinguishable" and "partially distorted," a positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald was made by Scalice. This is perhaps the most important finding made since the time of the assassination. It may now be stated as fact that the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald were left behind on the trigger housing of the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
I think personally I'd want to see a number of "Experts" match this to LBJ's man. Preferably "double-blind"
I'm not sure I see the point of this question unless you are an out and out idealistic commie. Even then Communist superpowers try to inflict their infuence on others.
As for th Mafia, in the US it was prohibition that gave them the power but they were there already, imported from Italy, so what is your point?
In short NO the US has not corrupted anyone anymore than any other superpower ,it is life and the way the world works, unfair maybe, but life is. Get a life and fget used to it, it will not change in the near future, Lifes scroungers will make sure of that.
Sorry but a pointless question. (Unless you are some liberal leftie commie)
As for th Mafia, in the US it was prohibition that gave them the power but they were there already, imported from Italy, so what is your point?
In short NO the US has not corrupted anyone anymore than any other superpower ,it is life and the way the world works, unfair maybe, but life is. Get a life and fget used to it, it will not change in the near future, Lifes scroungers will make sure of that.
Sorry but a pointless question. (Unless you are some liberal leftie commie)
>or else he's a fantasist who's hell bent on making as >much money as possible out of his far fetched
>ramblings!
Well somebody killed JFK, and it certainly was not Lee Harvey Oswald on his own.
And there are a lot of strange things that happened before and after the killing that make it clear that someone was trying to frame Oswald.
As an example, if Oswald was going to kill the president of the USA would he really send away for a mail order rifle (a pretty poor one at that), using his own name, and then leave the gun at the scene of the crime?
I dont believe anyone is that stupid, particularly anyone who planned to kill the president of the USA.
So it had to be more than one person, which means a conspiricy.
And those people must have had power, influence, money, and contact with people who would kill to order.
LBJ and his strange group of friends seem to fit that bill, so I would not call that "far fetched ramblings".
In fact a search on "LBJ killed JFK" gives quite a few hits, so he is not alone. Here is one
http://www.rense.com/general40/thewnk.htm
>ramblings!
Well somebody killed JFK, and it certainly was not Lee Harvey Oswald on his own.
And there are a lot of strange things that happened before and after the killing that make it clear that someone was trying to frame Oswald.
As an example, if Oswald was going to kill the president of the USA would he really send away for a mail order rifle (a pretty poor one at that), using his own name, and then leave the gun at the scene of the crime?
I dont believe anyone is that stupid, particularly anyone who planned to kill the president of the USA.
So it had to be more than one person, which means a conspiricy.
And those people must have had power, influence, money, and contact with people who would kill to order.
LBJ and his strange group of friends seem to fit that bill, so I would not call that "far fetched ramblings".
In fact a search on "LBJ killed JFK" gives quite a few hits, so he is not alone. Here is one
http://www.rense.com/general40/thewnk.htm
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Robin Ramsey.....would not be able to spread such propaganda of communist bloc/muslim/Arab/African/S.American/Venezuella/Argentina/India/Pakistan if he was a citizen of those countries.
He is abusing 'free speech' something that is not available in the countries mentioned and many others.
The eastern bloc countries that have recently been granted independance are far behind American civilisation today.
He is abusing 'free speech' something that is not available in the countries mentioned and many others.
The eastern bloc countries that have recently been granted independance are far behind American civilisation today.
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