BBC perceived pronunciation?

[TheRtHonSec]

There are lots of accents and dialects in this country, which I think is wonderful. But where did pronunciation like this come from: brarss plark (brass plaque)? Barth (Bath)? And lots of others. There was a time when we had the "Dan Maskell" type of pronunciation, e.g. gress (grass), gless (glass), so why and when did they start to put an 4rse in these words?

[MarkRae]

It's always been like that. The vowel change really isn't a class thing in the South - the working class are just as likely to call themselves the working "clars" as anyone.

http://en.wikipedia.o...eceived_Pronunciation

[boxtops]

It's Received, I think, not Perceived?

[Prudie]

I was born in Barth

[SueMoneyRowley]

It's received pronunciation you mean, and the long a vowel sound is nothing to do with it. It's just how people down south have always spoken. There are also some words you can't use a short a in - like Chicago.

[TheRtHonSec]

Thanks Mick and Boxtops. I hear those words and wonder why they are pronounced like that. It's not dialect for sure but is it an accent?

[Tilly2]

The accent is the sound of the words and the dialect is the words you use and the way you put them together.

[TheRtHonSec]

Thanks folks. Seems like a load of 4rse to me. Oops!

[MarkRae]

Yes indeed. Accent is pronouncing "our" as either "are" our "hour". Dialect is saying "wor".

[TheRtHonSec]

Sorry. Received the wrong name. Marc!

[MarkRae]

That said, my name isn't usually pronounced "Mick"... :-)

[TheRtHonSec]

Sorry Mark. I'll have to make this my last Fosters!

[factor-fiction]

It always sounds odd to me when someone with a North East accent says Marster and Plarster.

[MarkRae]

Not to me, factor, being born and raised there...

[MarkRae]

"Marc", though, is perfectly acceptable, as that's my name in French and Gaelic...

[FredPuli43]

RtHon, how do you pronounce 'brass plaque'? BrASS Plack ? If you do, you have a Northern accent. I think all Southerners, including working class Londoners, pronounce 'brass' as 'brarse'. 'Plaque' varies; some have it as 'plack' some as 'plark' (which is closer to French, whence the word came, as late as the C19 ). Hotel, however, has lost its Frenchness. Few now say "an 'otel", as my grandmother's generation did, but 'a hotel'.

Other differences have disappeared. Almost nobody says 'hice' for 'house' or 'goff' for 'golf' now.

[Quizmonster]

‘An hotel', with the ‘h' silent, is perfectly correct, though somewhat dated nowadays, as Fred says above.
It is optional whether or not to pronounce the opening ‘h' in words in which the first syllable is unstressed...eg habitual, horrendous, hotel, historian, horrific etc and therefore whether 'a' or 'an' is used before it. The five words just listed commonly have ‘an' before them.
It is probably the lack of opening stress rather than any French provenance that matters, although opening letters ‘h' in French itself are not spoken . Hackney, hearse, homage and hostage all came to us from French, too, but I do not know of any evidence that British people - other than Cockneys etc - ever said 'ackney, 'earse, 'omage or 'ostage. It is probably because of such words that the relevance of French pronunciation has been doubted as regards the 'an (h)otel' usage.
Much more significant surely is the fact that all four of these words - hackney, hearse, homage and hostage - open with a stressed syllable which the other four - hotel, habitual, historian and horrific - do not. It seems most probable, therefore, that stress-pattern is more important than French origin in this matter. Fowler's Modern English Usage does not even mention a French factor here, though it does indicate the relevance of the unstressed opening.

[chakka35]

I'm not sure what you mean, Quizmonster, when you say that "an 'otel" is perfectly correct. There certainly was once a tendency to be so illogical but it was never more than an unjustifiable fad. The daftness of it (and something you mention) is that it applies only when the stress is on the second syllable - giving rise to such absurdities as "a history of london" but "an historical account of London".

Best confined to the dustbin of outdated pretentiousness.

[d9f1c7]

The correct pronunciation for Brass Plaque is brass rhymes with pass and plaque rhymes with wack.

Ones that annoy me though, are people who pronounce "O" wrong, as in "Hawaii five orr"!

But a real cracker is the posh bloke who pronounced Toyota as "tyerta"

[FredPuli43]

Really, dt? Who says that 'plark' is not correct ? Collins, for example, gives both plack and plark. So does the full Oxford Dictionary, 2nd Edition,1989, which gives 'plark' first (Collins 2005 Edition, the 7th, does the reverse) And anyway, I say 'plark', so it must be right! Do you think plack is right for the like reason ? The difference in listing in the two dictionaries may reflect which was the commoner pronunciation at the time of compiling (or simply how the compilers themseves said the word!)

Yes, QM, a French connection seems mere speculation for 'hotel'.

[FredPuli43]

Dt? D9 ! ^^