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If The Rest Of The Country Had A Vote On Scottish Independence ….
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…. do you think the ‘Ayes’ would have it?
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QuizMonster, obviously you are not a patriotic Brit, as you'd rather not even be a Brit ... but they do exist in great numbers in this country, as do a number of people around the world, all of whom enjoy "buying British".
That's not to say those people won't also enjoy "buying Scottish" in future, but it's a big ask for an unpatriotic ex-Brit to appeal to a patriotic Brit to continue buying from them on the basis of their patriotism ... it would be a bit like the Shetland Islands declaring independence from Scotland, then asking patriotic Scots such as yourself to continue buying Fair Isle sweaters on the basis of your Scottishness.
That's not to say those people won't also enjoy "buying Scottish" in future, but it's a big ask for an unpatriotic ex-Brit to appeal to a patriotic Brit to continue buying from them on the basis of their patriotism ... it would be a bit like the Shetland Islands declaring independence from Scotland, then asking patriotic Scots such as yourself to continue buying Fair Isle sweaters on the basis of your Scottishness.
Why do we assume that the rest of the UK don't want to keep the Union?
It's bugging some of my family that because they don't live in Scotland, where their families are, they don't get a say - but people who've come in from (say) the EU in recent months and don't understand the issues and the history are being given a vote.
It's bugging some of my family that because they don't live in Scotland, where their families are, they don't get a say - but people who've come in from (say) the EU in recent months and don't understand the issues and the history are being given a vote.
"Why do we assume that the rest of the UK don't want to keep the Union? "
We don't, boxtops. We've never been asked. People in England in particular have never been asked how they would like the constitution of their nation (and by this I mean England in this case) to progress. Wales, NI and Scotland all have their different forms of devolution. Scotland is now being given a say on full independence. But nobody has ever asked the English whether they'd prefer to remain full members of the Union, or if they'd like some looser ties with the other three constituent parts or, heaven forbid, whether they might like full independence.
I wonder why that is?
We don't, boxtops. We've never been asked. People in England in particular have never been asked how they would like the constitution of their nation (and by this I mean England in this case) to progress. Wales, NI and Scotland all have their different forms of devolution. Scotland is now being given a say on full independence. But nobody has ever asked the English whether they'd prefer to remain full members of the Union, or if they'd like some looser ties with the other three constituent parts or, heaven forbid, whether they might like full independence.
I wonder why that is?
Ellipsis, I spent half my adult life in military uniform with the BRITISH armed forces! You have no right whatsoever to assume that I was “not a patriotic Brit”.
I don’t know how old you are, obviously, but it may well be that – when you were being tucked up in your jim-jams – I was somewhere less cosy, helping ensure your safety.
Throughout my period of service, although the SNP existed, there never was even the remotest prospect of its becoming the majority party in a devolved Scottish government. That, clearly, has now changed and changed circumstances often require changed responses.
I am not a supporter of Alex Salmond or the SNP as such but, as I told you here earlier, I would dearly love to see an independent Scotland. With that achieved, there would follow a General Election there, in which all parties participated and people could then vote as they actually wished.
Meantime…I am perfectly happy for you to buy anything you want from wherever you want!
I don’t know how old you are, obviously, but it may well be that – when you were being tucked up in your jim-jams – I was somewhere less cosy, helping ensure your safety.
Throughout my period of service, although the SNP existed, there never was even the remotest prospect of its becoming the majority party in a devolved Scottish government. That, clearly, has now changed and changed circumstances often require changed responses.
I am not a supporter of Alex Salmond or the SNP as such but, as I told you here earlier, I would dearly love to see an independent Scotland. With that achieved, there would follow a General Election there, in which all parties participated and people could then vote as they actually wished.
Meantime…I am perfectly happy for you to buy anything you want from wherever you want!
New Judge, it's the same reason that anybody who's white, or heterosexual, or male (or especially all three! like me and I guess you) have to accept on regular occasions that because they or their ancestors have historically done quite well by being one or more of those things, they now have to suffer a bit of reverse discrimination ...
Perhaps you're unaware, Ellipsis, that the word, 'Britain', is defined by The Oxford English Dictionary as (quote) "the proper name of the WHOLE island containing England, Wales AND Scotland..." (my capitals). It also defines 'Brit' as (quote) "a colloquial shortening of Briton" and 'Briton' itself' as (quote) "a native of Britain".
Where do you get the absurd notion that these words do not - or will not, in the event of a 'Yes' vote - apply to Scots just as much as the English and Welsh?
Unless you can somehow dig a bottomless trench and float Scotland off into the Atlantic, it will forever remain a PART of Britain just as England and Wales would remain a PART of Britain after the flotation!
What words actually mean is not something in your gift and nor have you any right to believe that you can appropriate them for yourselves alone. Accordingly, the definition you provide for 'patriotic' fits me as perfectly now as it always did.
Where do you get the absurd notion that these words do not - or will not, in the event of a 'Yes' vote - apply to Scots just as much as the English and Welsh?
Unless you can somehow dig a bottomless trench and float Scotland off into the Atlantic, it will forever remain a PART of Britain just as England and Wales would remain a PART of Britain after the flotation!
What words actually mean is not something in your gift and nor have you any right to believe that you can appropriate them for yourselves alone. Accordingly, the definition you provide for 'patriotic' fits me as perfectly now as it always did.
The RumpUK couldn't call itself "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" either...at least, not without absurdity. Why? Because the phrase 'Great Britain' - even more than just 'Britain' - applies to the WHOLE island.
At the coronation of King James VI of Scotland as King James I in 1604, the proclamation literally declared him to be "King of Great Britain".
Clearly, after any 'Yes' vote, the Westminster parliament will NOT be the legislative body for the whole island, will it? And, given that one of the only two kingdoms involved in the name 'United Kingdom' will have LEFT, I can't see why the RumpUK can sensibly retain that element of the nomenclature either!
At the coronation of King James VI of Scotland as King James I in 1604, the proclamation literally declared him to be "King of Great Britain".
Clearly, after any 'Yes' vote, the Westminster parliament will NOT be the legislative body for the whole island, will it? And, given that one of the only two kingdoms involved in the name 'United Kingdom' will have LEFT, I can't see why the RumpUK can sensibly retain that element of the nomenclature either!
QuizMonster, we are talking about your status as a patriotic Brit now, not in the past (when maybe you were) nor what "Brit" (and therefore "patriotic Brit") might actually mean in a future in which Scotland voted to leave the UK. You have to accept that right now, as a British person who wants Scotland to leave the UK, you could not be described as a patriotic Brit.
patriotic: adj., having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country
Since the moniker is "Brit", the "country" we are discussing is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I accept you are a patriotic Scot and maybe a patriotic European (e.g. at the Ryder Cup), but you cannot profess right now to have devotion and vigorous support for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland at the very time you are arguing for it to be ripped apart!
patriotic: adj., having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country
Since the moniker is "Brit", the "country" we are discussing is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I accept you are a patriotic Scot and maybe a patriotic European (e.g. at the Ryder Cup), but you cannot profess right now to have devotion and vigorous support for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland at the very time you are arguing for it to be ripped apart!
Yes, Corby, an idea that will no doubt be put forward as part of the "transitional arrangements".
Well sorry, but I disagree. If Scotland becomes an independent nation then people living there should lose their UK (or British, call it what you will) citizenship forthwith. There should be no faffing about. Independence means entirely that - independent of any other nation.
Well sorry, but I disagree. If Scotland becomes an independent nation then people living there should lose their UK (or British, call it what you will) citizenship forthwith. There should be no faffing about. Independence means entirely that - independent of any other nation.
From the Yes campaign site,
The Scottish Government will allow dual citizenship. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship - though we know that dual citizenship is allowed for those with any other nationality, and the UK Government has said that “it is likely that it would be possible for an individual to hold both British and Scottish citizenship.” (Indeed, the Law Society of Scotland has suggested that it might be contrary to EU law if Westminster attempted to deprive anyone of British citizenship merely because they had acquired citizenship of another member state ie Scotland).
The Scottish Government will allow dual citizenship. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish citizenship - though we know that dual citizenship is allowed for those with any other nationality, and the UK Government has said that “it is likely that it would be possible for an individual to hold both British and Scottish citizenship.” (Indeed, the Law Society of Scotland has suggested that it might be contrary to EU law if Westminster attempted to deprive anyone of British citizenship merely because they had acquired citizenship of another member state ie Scotland).
As I said in my last response, RumpUK couldn't sensibly call itself 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' for the reasons I gave. If it were to insist on retaining the words 'kingdom', and 'Britain', it would logically need to drop 'united' and 'great', replacing the latter with Southern'. This gives you...
The Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland.
Likewise, as I understand the Queen will be retained as Head of State in an independent Scotland, that could equally be called...
The Kingdom of Northern Britain.
As TCL suggests, dual nationality is something one cannot easily be deprived of if one qualifies for it. Right now, if I chose to approach the South African embassy, they would be obliged to give me South African nationality because of my family circumstances. In the same way, as long as Scotland remains the northerly half of this island, 'Britain', I can see no way in which I can have my 'British' passport legally taken away. I, therefore, repeat that "I am and will remain a patriotic Brit", however anyone else decides to MISinterpret these words.
And that's about enough, I think, so "Thank you and good night!"
The Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland.
Likewise, as I understand the Queen will be retained as Head of State in an independent Scotland, that could equally be called...
The Kingdom of Northern Britain.
As TCL suggests, dual nationality is something one cannot easily be deprived of if one qualifies for it. Right now, if I chose to approach the South African embassy, they would be obliged to give me South African nationality because of my family circumstances. In the same way, as long as Scotland remains the northerly half of this island, 'Britain', I can see no way in which I can have my 'British' passport legally taken away. I, therefore, repeat that "I am and will remain a patriotic Brit", however anyone else decides to MISinterpret these words.
And that's about enough, I think, so "Thank you and good night!"
> In the same way, as long as Scotland remains the northerly half of this island, 'Britain', I can see no way in which I can have my 'British' passport legally taken away.
I'm sure you don't seriously believe that the whole population of an independent Scotland will automatically still be citizens of the rUK.
But just to be clear - should independence happen, you will not have dual nationality with the country I live in (whatever it becomes named) unless you qualify for it, which would not be automatic. On day one after independence was implemented (i.e. some months after it was voted for), most Scots would be Scottish and that's it.
I'm sure you don't seriously believe that the whole population of an independent Scotland will automatically still be citizens of the rUK.
But just to be clear - should independence happen, you will not have dual nationality with the country I live in (whatever it becomes named) unless you qualify for it, which would not be automatic. On day one after independence was implemented (i.e. some months after it was voted for), most Scots would be Scottish and that's it.
No NJ, a Scot would have to qualify for citizenship of the rUK, just as an rBrit would have to qualify for citizenship of Scotland, e.g. by parentage, place of birth or time spent living there.
I would imagine that many thousands would qualify for dual citizenship, but there's no way that all citizens of either country could automatically be citizens of the other, mainly because it's not their decision to make.
I would imagine that many thousands would qualify for dual citizenship, but there's no way that all citizens of either country could automatically be citizens of the other, mainly because it's not their decision to make.
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