List

[KARL]

Another interesting list has been published: https://www.socialprogress.org/ where social conditions are ranked, independent of wealth (you may have money but still not be well off). In this list it is informative to see not only the UK's rank but what are listed as its weak points.

[KARL]

The usual suspects are at the top.

[jno]

no rural open defecation, that has to be good.

[Tilly2]

That is an interesting list, Karl.

I was surprised to see that we are underperforming in some of those areas....access to quality education and discrimination and violence against minorities.

[Tilly2]

I don't really understand child stunting and why are we behind in property rights for women?

[jno]

or indeed overperforming, Tilly.

Ranked 60th in property rights for women is a surprise. Are there some barriers to ownership that I don't know about?

[KARL]

The way I look at these things is from the perspective of comparison - those above any particular country in this list or any other list are doing better so there is by definition room for improvement for the country in question. It needs to be remembered that the criteria are the same for everyone, all 146 countries.

[woofgang]

I wonder how they get the data they base the ratings on, and how valid it is...the data I mean.

[KARL]

Those who think they are better than their position on the list reflects are most likely to rubbish any survey, never fails. International comparison lists of this nature are almost never widely published in the UK, only appear in obscure ways if at all. International comparisons of this type almost always show the UK in a rather poor light.

[Tilly2]

We all need to emigrate. Where shall we go?

[Spicerack]

Anti-British Commie Crapola.

[Tilly2]

Why, Spicerack?

[ladybirder]

Is that why you're showing it to us Karl?

[woofgang]

KARL, I have no idea if the UK is better, worse or any other thing.....its what I normally think/ask when I see data based reports like this one where the evidence for the assertions made is not clear.

[KARL]

Information has absolute value and is worth examining. Those who don't like certain information level accusations of various kinds at those who point to it (shoot the messenger). The media are supposed to inform and there is another list covering how well they do their job - the last version I saw had the UK's at no.40. I have not seen that list published in the UK - no doubt the list is unpopular in those quarters but that does not move the UK up the list. Which is better when we are uncomfortable, to improve things when the truth reveals itself or to hide from the list ?

[woofgang]

I agree with you KARL that information, valid information has an absolute value....but as presented, this isn't information, its an interpretation of it. For it to be valid information, there would need to be the background stuff there too....definitions, where its not clear from the title, where the numbers came from, who collected them and how and so on.

[woofgang]

I haven't seen any accusations on here....and I think that my questions are not accusatory but a quest for information......

[woofgang]

oh and PS. I used to do surveys and interviews within the NHS as part of my job of proposing and setting up community service changes. It was a requirement when I wrote reports to include an appendix setting out how surveys and interviews had been conducted, where I had got statistics from and so on in order to VALIDATE the information that I was presenting.

[KARL]

Woofgang, as someone who has also done survey work (planning, execution and analysis) I understand your point. However, there are quite a number of recognised organisations which present/publish their lists/indices on a regular basis and who do not as a matter of course feel they need to in detail justify their findings, they are widely circulated and accepted. There are corners of the world where on they other hand are relatively unknown - this is because they are not widely circulated there. The UK is one such place, the public here have hardly ever heard of any so it is probably natural that people here react incredulously - but civil servant headquarters know them only too well and for uncomfortable reasons. They don't particularly want them circulated, but if the UK did improve and move toward the top of the lists I firmly believe the lists would be on the front pages immediately on issue/publication.

You have prompted me to send in a request for answers to your points regarding this list and if I get a response I will post it here.

[KARL]

Woofgang, I received a reply and, as promised, this is (the link to) the full spiel:
https://www.socialprogress.org/assets/downloads/resources/2018/2018-Social-Progress-Index-Methodology.pdf
I hope you are as satisfied as I am that the methodology, the data and conclusions are sound - the UK is as it is.

[KARL]

P.S. The data sources are said to be international institutions, research publications of large academic establishments, such as FAO, UN, OECD, Yale, etc. as well as the statistical records and data banks of the countries in question.