Could Folding Your Socks Be A Panacea For Disaffected Youth?

[Khandro]

Major Nanson thinks it might, he says try this Royal Military Academy Sandhurst morning routine for size. Wake up around 5am, make your bed in crisp hospital corners, iron and fold all clothing to the dimensions of an A4 piece of paper and double over your socks to form a “smile”. Toiletries must all rest, equidistant, on a solitary washing flannel.

Then muster at 5.55am outside your door in crisply polished shoes to sing the national anthem, before an exacting room inspection. Anything out of place, and you do it all over again. This, explains Major General Paul Nanson, is the Sandhurst way – helping to impose self-discipline and a sense of pride, and the first vital steps in learning how to lead.

“Only once you have your own house in order,” he writes in his new book, Stand Up Straight, “can you help the men and women under your leadership do the same.”

[dannyk13]

and on the top blanket if not using a duvet.

[Theland]

My father, father in law, and two brothers in law were all ex service men, (army, navy and Air Force), and they all carried the self discipline, attention to detail, and smartness for the rest of their lives.
I, on the other hand, have not been in the services, and I am often disorganised and too laid back I am sad to admit.
I applaud ex service men for their character.

[woofgang]

Douglas "It's one of the ways to condition rational human beings to fight and kill as a career.
Entry level control"

My late father was in the army in the war, a regular not a conscript. He was a CSM. He said the same thing.

[Khandro]

woofgang; Did he, or indeed can Douglas, explain the correlation between being clean & self-disciplined, and killing someone?

[woofgang]

yes Khandro, he did. The idea is that you get people to obey any command without question...no consideration if its sensible, do-able, whether you want to do it or not, you just obey instantly.... That has its uses. One of my Dad's duties was to get specialist non military observers to the front lines to see what the enemy were up to and report back. Dad had to get them there and back alive and undamaged. He said that he did better with the ones who had been there a while because they learned to do as he said immediately, even if it was something like diving into a hole filled with mud and that kept them alive. On a lighter note, I used to travel on merchant ships including oil tankers with my husband. It was drilled into all of us that instant response to the fire alarm was essential. We went into dry dock in Singapore on one ship, my husband had gone off to do the night shift and I was in bed sound asleep. For some reason the fire alarm went off briefly and I woke up standing in the alleyway outside the cabin,fully dressed over my nightwear and wearing my lifejacket!

[diddlydo]

One can be organised, tidy and disciplined without joining the army which just seeks to intimidate recruits and make them unquestioning. This is not a good trait.

[ichkeria]

I was busy folding my socks and measuring how far my shaving foam was from my toothpaste when the enemy struck.
Now, here on my cell, I can fold my remaining sock to my heart’s content.
Is it April 1st yet?

[Khandro]

But you don't have to be disciplined to be obedient; think of the famous Stanley Milgram experiments at Yale University;

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243

[sevenOP]

"...can Douglas, explain the correlation between being clean & self-disciplined, and killing someone?"

it is about ensuring [ enforced ] conformity replaces [ considered ] consent.

[woofgang]

Khandro, I am not sure how your response is relevant....its not a question of how to become (self) disciplined, its about why the army does things in the way that it does.

[woofgang]

I think with the Maj Gen Nanson thing, it is what Christine Keeler said "Well he would say that wouldn't he?"

[New Judge]

//...just seeks to intimidate recruits and make them unquestioning. This is not a good trait.//

//it is about ensuring [ enforced ] conformity replaces [ considered ] consent.//

All well and good from the comfort of your armchair on a cosy evening in. However, very often in stressful situations there is not the opportunity for discussion and debate. Decisions have to be taken quickly by individuals whose task it is to take them. Military exercises are not undertaken by a committee that meets once a month over coffee and biscuits. To have a group of personnel debating and arguing over what to do next is a far greater risk than an individual making a quick decision. That's what the "sock folding" exercise is all about.

All military groups across the globe operate on similar principles and if a "reasoned debate" philosophy was considered a better strategy I imagine somebody would have discovered that by now.

[dannyk13]

Diddly //just seeks to intimidate recruits//
Absolute rubbish.

[douglas9401]

Oh dear.

Anyway, since I've been condemned out of hand by Brigadier Huffnpuff I'll take myself off to peel some spuds and paint stones white.

At ease.

[Khandro]

It is nothing to do with making it easier for a man to kill a man, as the Major General says, it is, " helping to impose self-discipline and a sense of pride" which are, "the first vital steps in learning how to lead".

[woofgang]

Avatar Image New Judge //...just seeks to intimidate recruits and make them unquestioning. This is not a good trait.//

//it is about ensuring [ enforced ] conformity replaces [ considered ] consent.//

All well and good from the comfort of your armchair on a cosy evening in. However, very often in stressful situations there is not the opportunity for discussion and debate. Decisions have to be taken quickly by individuals whose task it is to take them. Military exercises are not undertaken by a committee that meets once a month over coffee and biscuits. To have a group of personnel debating and arguing over what to do next is a far greater risk than an individual making a quick decision. That's what the "sock folding" exercise is all about.

All military groups across the globe operate on similar principles and if a "reasoned debate" philosophy was considered a better strategy I imagine somebody would have discovered that by now.


I agree NJ. I said more or less the same thing, however, what is useful and needful in a military situation is not necessarily useful or needful elsewhere. The people who sign up or go to a military training college know (more or less) the what and the why and accept it when they sign up which is a bit different from Khandro's implying that it is globally a Good Thing.

[New Judge]

//The people who sign up or go to a military training college know (more or less) the what and the why and accept it when they sign up which is a bit different from Khandro's implying that it is globally a Good Thing.//

I certainly agree with the first of your points, woofy. The UK has volunteer armed forces rather than conscripts and those signing up must be under no illusions. However, I think the Major-General makes some valid points. His interview (where he espoused some of his philosophy) seems to have been deliberately misread. The journalist who wrote the article explained how the MJ believed that some of the Army's disciplines could help people in civilian life:

"Crucially, for us less rugged civilians, they can also help us address everything from confidence and anxiety to tackling our ironing pile, perfecting our holiday packing or just getting the kids off to school in the right clothes."

Many people live disorganised lives. It causes them difficulties, stress and anxiety and saps their confidence. The MJ is not telling everybody to make their bed packs every morning at 5am or to paint the coal white. What he is suggesting is some of the principles of discipline which run throughout the armed forces can be transferred to those in civilian life to help them cope better. And with that, I entirely agree.

[woofgang]

NJ is there a link please? I agree with your comment about being organised helping with stress....indeed that is what just about every self help expert or life coach says.

[sevenOP]

\\\ as the Major General says, it is, " helping to impose self-discipline and a sense of pride" which are, "the first vital steps in learning how to lead".\\\

We do not have the Nanson's book so a critique is not possible, only on your OP.
Producing human killing machines usually needs a process and teaching instant obedience is one ingredient. Self-discipline is preferably taught not imposed.

NJ - "sock folding" seems to me more about blind obedience than an ability to follow (Lawful) orders.

As guerrilla activity has shown throughout History - American Civil War, Cuban revolution, Afghanistan, Vietnam - untrained militia can be a formidable force and I doubt "sock folding" was high in their agenda.
I am not suggesting a "reasoned debate" in exigent circumstances, but moral action.

[theshedman]

Yes diddly the first line of what you have put can be true but from there onwards it is rubbish. They do not intimidate recruits. Most people who join the forces have a good idea of what to expect and usually accept it.