Affirmative Action? Good Or Bad?

[Theland]

Just watched a debate between Prof Frank Wu who supports affirmative action, and Dinesh D'Souza who is against.
(From Brown University).

This revolves around the issue of diversity.

So the questions :-

1) Do you support Affirmative Action?
2) What is good about diversity?

[ToraToraTora]

1) No, all discrimination is bad.
2) Everything.

[Theland]

We agree on that.
What about question 2?

[ToraToraTora]

my answer to Q2 is above.

[woofgang]

I think it depends on what the affirmative action consists of and yes to diversity.

[Theland]

Affirmative Action - giving preference to one group over another.

Why is diversity good?

[ToraToraTora]

"Why is diversity good?" - the act of asking such a question tells me any explanation I give will not penetrate your predefined dogma.

[woofgang]

Theland you wouldn't get any cut and thrust on here if we were all the same. I think "quota-ing" is a pretty blunt tool and one would hope that is never needed but if its the only way to get fairness into employment......

[Theland]

TTT - yes I have a pre defined dogma. I just don't see the benefits of diversity.
What's the point?
Shove somebody out of the way to make room for somebody else?

[brainiac]

Brown University: is that an example of affirmative action?

[jim360]

Diversity is clearly beneficial for multiple reasons, not least of which is that a diverse workforce represents a wider pool from which the company was recruiting, and so a better guarantee that you've got the talent you needed. Not only that, but people from diverse backgrounds will also bring perhaps different perspectives, e.g. because of their different life experiences. I'd be interested to see what TTT adds to this.

It's important to note that Affirmative Action covers a spectrum of different approaches. Presumably, the one that most would strongly object to is any sort of quota system, but affirmative action more loosely means encouraging as many people to apply as possible, and in particular encouraging those to apply who might not otherwise have done so. Again, that widens the available talent pool -- as long as talent is the primary consideration, all Affirmative Action would do is ensure (or make it easier to ensure) that you genuinely have chosen the best person for the job. Whether or not quotas on top of this are a good thing is harder to say, although at least it's less controversial why people might be bothered about it.

[Theland]

Yes it is one of many universities that, I understand, operate affirmative action.

[Theland]

The BBC some time ago advertised for interns and white males were forbidden to apply.
Same for Cheshire constabulary putting the blocks on white males.

[Theland]

Encouragement of BAMEs is one thing, but it is clearly wrong to bloc whites. That is real racism.

[jim360]

I vaguely remember that story, or those stories, but my feeling is that they were taken out of context, or at least I'd have liked to know a bit more about what else was available. In particular, if you are offering maybe dozens of internships and only one or two are defined to be "BAME only", then that would still leave dozens of opportunities for everybody else, so it's not like white men were barred from all roles at the BBC.

[Mamyalynne]

I remember the internship affair and it did send out some wrong messages, whilst there may have been other schemes running organised by Independent Organisations as this one was ,it was always going to look bad on a page.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/885434/bbc-trainee-job-advert-open-to-non-white-applicants-only

[Peter Pedant]

// 1) No, all discrimination is bad.//

in making any choice - you are discriminating arent you?
the point being that you have to be discriminating in your choice of selection criteria

( yes there is an intentional confusing pun in the above)

[Theland]

I believe in a meritocracy. Pass the tests, get the job, regardless of ones skin colour.

[Old_Geezer]

For a particular situation there is appropriate discrimination, and there is inappropriate discrimination.

If, by affirmative action you mean to not discriminate against anyone because of race, creed, colour, or national origin, etc., then that's fine, but it has come to mean deliberately discriminating in favour of certain groups using the excuse that it is needed to keep ratios of various groups at levels approved of, regardless how unfair it is to individuals. And that's the exact reverse of the original intent and thus blatant hypocrisy. It's deliberate inappropriate discrimination and needs to be stopped.

[woofgang]

Theland "I believe in a meritocracy. Pass the tests, get the job, regardless of ones skin colour."

If that were REALLY what happens then affirmative action wouldn't be necessary.

[ToraToraTora]

jim: "I'd be interested to see what TTT adds to this. (diversity)"
Theland: "I believe in a meritocracy. Pass the tests, get the job, regardless of ones skin colour. "
I'll take these two together hopefully my answer to the latter will support my views on diversity. Theland, yes I believe that too, there is no such thing as "positive" discrimination. When all discrimination is removed diversity emerges naturally in all situations, of course certain groups are more likely to be in certain areas of life, employment, sport, etc that is natural and to be expected. Diversity is good because it helps us be as good as we can be collectively in any given field or work/social situation. As far as employment goes, I often do tech interviews in the early stages of CV scanning I never read the personal stuff, I don't care what race/sex they are, I am primarily interested in their skills. Only when we get to the interview, usually on the phone, do I get some of that information.