Travel1 min ago
Time To Stop Accepting Mind Alteration?
292 Answers
I have been considering the effects of drugs - all drugs - and the reason people use them.
The conclusion I have reached is that every single person who uses any kind of drug - tobacco, cannabis, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, does so in pursuit of a level of mind alteration.
Only the amount consumed, and the desired effect vary, the initial reason is identical throughout - to alter the mind's perception of the present.
Now this can vary from a glass or two of wine at the end of the day, or at a party, or a cigarette to 'calm the nerves' right through to the desired temporary oblivion of a large dose of heroin.
Of course, as a culture, we have absorbed the first examples as simply cultural norms, accepted and even encouraged, less so the last one which remains illegal.
But my point is, the subliminal desire to alter the mind to whatever degree is present in all of them.
Now the first argument would be - 'I drink because I enjoy the taste ...'.
Fine, then you can drink non-alcoholic wine or beer and not notice any difference can't you.
But no, we persist with 'acceptable' drugs because we, as a culture, accept that mind alteration is an acceptable thing to have in our society.
My question is - is it acceptable?
Should we not look at educating children and young people - the adults of tomorrow - that mind alteration is actually not a good thing at all, and is in fact creating a false reality, and leading to death through dangerous driving, liver damage, psychosis, and all the other results of ingesting drugs.
Drugs are not good, and we should be looking at getting rid of them as acceptable in society.
Thoughts please?
The conclusion I have reached is that every single person who uses any kind of drug - tobacco, cannabis, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, does so in pursuit of a level of mind alteration.
Only the amount consumed, and the desired effect vary, the initial reason is identical throughout - to alter the mind's perception of the present.
Now this can vary from a glass or two of wine at the end of the day, or at a party, or a cigarette to 'calm the nerves' right through to the desired temporary oblivion of a large dose of heroin.
Of course, as a culture, we have absorbed the first examples as simply cultural norms, accepted and even encouraged, less so the last one which remains illegal.
But my point is, the subliminal desire to alter the mind to whatever degree is present in all of them.
Now the first argument would be - 'I drink because I enjoy the taste ...'.
Fine, then you can drink non-alcoholic wine or beer and not notice any difference can't you.
But no, we persist with 'acceptable' drugs because we, as a culture, accept that mind alteration is an acceptable thing to have in our society.
My question is - is it acceptable?
Should we not look at educating children and young people - the adults of tomorrow - that mind alteration is actually not a good thing at all, and is in fact creating a false reality, and leading to death through dangerous driving, liver damage, psychosis, and all the other results of ingesting drugs.
Drugs are not good, and we should be looking at getting rid of them as acceptable in society.
Thoughts please?
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"Time To Stop Accepting Mind Alteration?" - that just sounds like we are being pumped full of drugs by the government in some sort of "Brave new world" type dystopia. You seem to be saying we should all adhere to a state of total sobriety as you seem to do. Here's a thing though, countless things alter our minds every day and most of them are not "drugs". Things that make you happy/sad can be said to be mind altering in how they make you feel. Wonder at a beautiful sight, a nice car etc. Also exercise, I have experienced a "high", in that, you can reach a level of euphoria, nowt to do with drugs. Ok I drink, that's all I do nothing else and I don't really like booze much in itself, I enjoy the club I go to, darts snooker, juke box, quizzing, leaning on the bar solving all the problems of the world at the bar and yes booze does play a part I would not bother with soft drinks, yes you are correct there it is a need in the equation. I like the way I feel when doing it, I like the friendliness of others and the camaraderie we develop.
Never - // A-H, your 'suggestion', like much of your reasoning is wrong, incorrect, inaccurate... Your view has very little to commend it, I'm afraid. //
Simply repeating that you think I am wrong merely means that you think I am wrong, which is fine, but it's meaningless.
I have backed up my viewpoint, and reasons, and if you don't do the same, then I shall be happy to ignore you, since you are not willing to put your argument where your criticism is, and that's wasting your time, and mine.
Simply repeating that you think I am wrong merely means that you think I am wrong, which is fine, but it's meaningless.
I have backed up my viewpoint, and reasons, and if you don't do the same, then I shall be happy to ignore you, since you are not willing to put your argument where your criticism is, and that's wasting your time, and mine.
I wholehearted agree with much of Tora's reply above, living is a mind altering experience - the sights,sounds,smells and experiences.
Moving onto your main topic, you have expounded this before and of course you have every right to your views, as do we all. I feel it comes across more as a lecture than a statement.
There are people who abuse their bodies and minds to excess but after all is said, it is down to the individual.
Live your best life and enjoy every last moment.
Moving onto your main topic, you have expounded this before and of course you have every right to your views, as do we all. I feel it comes across more as a lecture than a statement.
There are people who abuse their bodies and minds to excess but after all is said, it is down to the individual.
Live your best life and enjoy every last moment.
TTT - //
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"Time To Stop Accepting Mind Alteration?" - that just sounds like we are being pumped full of drugs by the government in some sort of "Brave new world" type dystopia. //
It's interesting that the majority of responses on this thread have been dismissive and / or hostile.
Mind alteration is an accurate description of the effects of artificial stimulation, you can make it 'sound like' whatever you want, but it remains accurate.
//You seem to be saying we should all adhere to a state of total sobriety as you seem to do. //
That's not what I am saying at all.
I am suggesting that a world in which the majority of civilsed society uses artificial stimulation to make its members feel relaxed and comfortable in the company of others, may want to think that it's possibly not a good idea.
That's all I am saying, and everyone getting all het up seems to indicate that they are missing the point, and feeling the need to defend their behaviour.
Here's a thing though, countless things alter our minds every day and most of them are not "drugs". Things that make you happy/sad can be said to be mind altering in how they make you feel. Wonder at a beautiful sight, a nice car etc. Also exercise, I have experienced a "high", in that, you can reach a level of euphoria, nowt to do with drugs. //
Absolutely, but for the third time, none of those involve ingesting stimulants entirely designed to alter the mind's perception, as drugs, legal and illegal, are designed to do.
Ok I drink, that's all I do nothing else and I don't really like booze much in itself, I enjoy the club I go to, darts snooker, juke box, quizzing, leaning on the bar solving all the problems of the world at the bar and yes booze does play a part I would not bother with soft drinks, yes you are correct there it is a need in the equation. I like the way I feel when doing it, I like the friendliness of others and the camaraderie we develop. //
At last, someone willing to admit that they enjoy alcohol for the effect, rather than the taste.
Why people find it so hard to simply admit that is beyond me.
Mark as Best Answer
"Time To Stop Accepting Mind Alteration?" - that just sounds like we are being pumped full of drugs by the government in some sort of "Brave new world" type dystopia. //
It's interesting that the majority of responses on this thread have been dismissive and / or hostile.
Mind alteration is an accurate description of the effects of artificial stimulation, you can make it 'sound like' whatever you want, but it remains accurate.
//You seem to be saying we should all adhere to a state of total sobriety as you seem to do. //
That's not what I am saying at all.
I am suggesting that a world in which the majority of civilsed society uses artificial stimulation to make its members feel relaxed and comfortable in the company of others, may want to think that it's possibly not a good idea.
That's all I am saying, and everyone getting all het up seems to indicate that they are missing the point, and feeling the need to defend their behaviour.
Here's a thing though, countless things alter our minds every day and most of them are not "drugs". Things that make you happy/sad can be said to be mind altering in how they make you feel. Wonder at a beautiful sight, a nice car etc. Also exercise, I have experienced a "high", in that, you can reach a level of euphoria, nowt to do with drugs. //
Absolutely, but for the third time, none of those involve ingesting stimulants entirely designed to alter the mind's perception, as drugs, legal and illegal, are designed to do.
Ok I drink, that's all I do nothing else and I don't really like booze much in itself, I enjoy the club I go to, darts snooker, juke box, quizzing, leaning on the bar solving all the problems of the world at the bar and yes booze does play a part I would not bother with soft drinks, yes you are correct there it is a need in the equation. I like the way I feel when doing it, I like the friendliness of others and the camaraderie we develop. //
At last, someone willing to admit that they enjoy alcohol for the effect, rather than the taste.
Why people find it so hard to simply admit that is beyond me.
Mamya - // I wholehearted agree with much of Tora's reply above, living is a mind altering experience - the sights,sounds,smells and experiences. //
And for the fourth time, that has nothing to do with artificial stimulation, or the reasons behind it.
//Moving onto your main topic, you have expounded this before and of course you have every right to your views, as do we all. I feel it comes across more as a lecture than a statement. //
That's unfortunate, I am simply offering a point of view, nothing more than that.
// There are people who abuse their bodies and minds to excess but after all is said, it is down to the individual. //
There are, but they are the minority, and the majority are people who ingest some sort of stimulant on a regular basis - that's the point I am addressing.
And for the fourth time, that has nothing to do with artificial stimulation, or the reasons behind it.
//Moving onto your main topic, you have expounded this before and of course you have every right to your views, as do we all. I feel it comes across more as a lecture than a statement. //
That's unfortunate, I am simply offering a point of view, nothing more than that.
// There are people who abuse their bodies and minds to excess but after all is said, it is down to the individual. //
There are, but they are the minority, and the majority are people who ingest some sort of stimulant on a regular basis - that's the point I am addressing.
Never - // A-H, you seem so convinced of the validity of your argument and position, no amount of logic or reason could outweigh that. I don't mind stepping away - we could be here hundreds of posts later with you every bit as entrenched. //
I am not 'entrenched' in the slightest.
If you want to simply call me 'wrong' but give no reasons for your view, that is simply not addressing the points I am offering, and that is not debate.
By all means walk away, I am willing to be convinced by your argument, but since you appear not to have one, you are not going to add to the discussion.
I am not 'entrenched' in the slightest.
If you want to simply call me 'wrong' but give no reasons for your view, that is simply not addressing the points I am offering, and that is not debate.
By all means walk away, I am willing to be convinced by your argument, but since you appear not to have one, you are not going to add to the discussion.
You seem to be suggesting, Andy, that people drink EITHER because they enjoy the taste OR because they enjoy the effects of alcohol. You further seem to be suggesting/assuming that those two reasons are mutually exclusive.
It was for that reason that I challenged your apparent assumption that non-alcoholic beers, wines and spirits can taste as good as their alcoholic equivalents. (In my opinion, they can't).
However I never denied that I enjoy the effects of alcohol, AS WELL as the taste, and I'm certainly not going to do so now. I'm perfectly happy to admit that I enjoy the 'mellow' feeling that I get after a drink or two. Further, as someone who enjoys a bit of creative writing from time to time, I'm also happy to admit that I subscribe to Hemingway's maxim of "Write drunk. Edit sober".
It was for that reason that I challenged your apparent assumption that non-alcoholic beers, wines and spirits can taste as good as their alcoholic equivalents. (In my opinion, they can't).
However I never denied that I enjoy the effects of alcohol, AS WELL as the taste, and I'm certainly not going to do so now. I'm perfectly happy to admit that I enjoy the 'mellow' feeling that I get after a drink or two. Further, as someone who enjoys a bit of creative writing from time to time, I'm also happy to admit that I subscribe to Hemingway's maxim of "Write drunk. Edit sober".
Roy - Was it the question about be not like a beer or two?
Simple.
I never developed a taste for any alcoholic drink.
I worked behind a bar in my teens, and had a try of almost everything, and it literally all tasted the same to be - whiskey tastes like bitter, wine tastes like Guiness - I have no palate whatsoever.
I have drunk enough spirits to find out what being drunk feels like, and I didn't enjoy the lack of control, from the fuzzy relaxed feeling right through to throwing up all night.
So the taste, and effect of alcohol is something I have never enjoyed.
But - and this is the reason for my OP - the effects of drugs on people I find interesting.
Simple.
I never developed a taste for any alcoholic drink.
I worked behind a bar in my teens, and had a try of almost everything, and it literally all tasted the same to be - whiskey tastes like bitter, wine tastes like Guiness - I have no palate whatsoever.
I have drunk enough spirits to find out what being drunk feels like, and I didn't enjoy the lack of control, from the fuzzy relaxed feeling right through to throwing up all night.
So the taste, and effect of alcohol is something I have never enjoyed.
But - and this is the reason for my OP - the effects of drugs on people I find interesting.
Buenchico - // You seem to be suggesting, Andy, that people drink EITHER because they enjoy the taste OR because they enjoy the effects of alcohol. You further seem to be suggesting/assuming that those two reasons are mutually exclusive.
It was for that reason that I challenged your apparent assumption that non-alcoholic beers, wines and spirits can taste as good as their alcoholic equivalents. (In my opinion, they can't). //
If I gave that impression, it was not intended.
I think most people do enjoy the taste of alcohol, and tobacco, but my point is that they need the relaxation they produce far more, and that is actually the reason why they indulge in them.
// Further, as someone who enjoys a bit of creative writing from time to time, I'm also happy to admit that I subscribe to Hemingway's maxim of "Write drunk. Edit sober". //
Whatever works, no problem.
I write sober and edit sober - I think writing drunk would be pointless for me!!!!
It was for that reason that I challenged your apparent assumption that non-alcoholic beers, wines and spirits can taste as good as their alcoholic equivalents. (In my opinion, they can't). //
If I gave that impression, it was not intended.
I think most people do enjoy the taste of alcohol, and tobacco, but my point is that they need the relaxation they produce far more, and that is actually the reason why they indulge in them.
// Further, as someone who enjoys a bit of creative writing from time to time, I'm also happy to admit that I subscribe to Hemingway's maxim of "Write drunk. Edit sober". //
Whatever works, no problem.
I write sober and edit sober - I think writing drunk would be pointless for me!!!!
AH: "Absolutely, but for the third time, none of those involve ingesting stimulants entirely designed to alter the mind's perception, as drugs, legal and illegal, are designed to do." - yes but how does that square with your statement about "not accepting mind alteration" - Does that mean we should never have our mood altered? By anything? Should we be emotionless drones?
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