Last night at the proms.

[dilligaf]

As usual excellent but what happened to Rule Britania? did I miss it ?

[Shadow Man]

Yes you missed it. Fourth iece from the end.

[Pirate1]

Are the patriotic songs being cut out or made shorter. I don't know but I'm sure I used to sing louder and longer in ye olden days! Was something missing?

[dilligaf]

Thanks Pirate 1 I have found that although being older I am less hoarse after singing along , as you say, something is missing.. One of my favourites "Rule Brittania" I seemed to have missed completely this year.

Isn't it sad after getting into the mood of the proms that we all have to face the reality of life.

How long before the proms are banned because they ared not cosidered pc.

[Pirate1]

I think its quite sad and scary that we are even thinking and expecting this to happen. :(

[chakka35]

Rule Britannia was given a different introduction from normal and then severely curtailed. It would have been easy to miss it had you popped out for a moment.

[saxy_jag]

My bloke did notice that the 'Home, Sweet Home' part of the folk song suite was not accompanied by the usual hanky-waving.

[cambus]

This ancient ritual is way past its sell by date, with its Mrs. Dales Diary audience, its enough to put anyone to sleep.
All the phoney flag waving is an insult to our European neighbours and just confirms the little England mentality, hiding behind the grotesque mask of patriotism.

[Octavius]

I believe the format has been reverted back to the Sir Henry Woods (as part of the Fantasia on British Sea Songs) original arrangement rather than the one by Sir Malcolm Sargent (a solo type piece) which was used up to 2000.

The inclusion of this and some other songs has been criticised in recent years as too patriotic by the American, Leonard Slatkin, former conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra (which he constantly criticised in term). He often complained of the nationalism of the event and when he conducted the event in 2001, shortly after 9/11 the programme was heavily altered.

And for the purists, it is �.

Rule, Britannia!

[milliezoe]

Cannot believe cambus thinking its an insult to our european neighbours wake up sunshine when we get a vote on the european agenda we shall be back to good old Little England and much better off as well we can then start to kick out the undesirables from eastern europe who are bleeding us dry and also we can deport all the foreign prisoners clogging our jails we can then lock up some of our own wastrels

[Octavius]

Lets not detract from the Q and go down the Daily Mail Parade eh.

What cambus famously fails to explain, is whether their patriotic grudge is reserved solely for English patriotism and 'flag waving' or whether their sentiment applies to any and all European or wider afield nation.

If cambus just doesn't like classical music, then fair enough.

[dilligaf]

I am not particulary a lover of classical music although I enjoy many pieces.
Favourites are Pink Floyd, Status Quo,Small Faces, Eric Clapton etc. (Showing my age now)

But I do really enjoy last night at the proms and have done so for many years. However, I do feel the real patriotic songs are being "watered down" in order to avoid offence to "non English" residents of this country.

This does not appear to happen in other European countries when they celibrate special occasions and I feel sure if it was suggested they should change, as we have, there would be riots. Do we have to change to please the people who chose to come to England to live or should they change to accept the traditions of the country they chose to come to?

[cambus]

Octavius, I enjoy classical music immensely, but I'm sure I can't be the only one, who is bored by this annual get-together to celebrate English jingoism.
The rest of the UK manage to have pride in their culture, without resorting to this form of aggressive patriotism.

[dilligaf]

CAMBUS. At midnight on 31st. December would you find it offensive to sing Auld Lang Syne?

[Sasha13]

cambus - er do they? I can't think of several times a year when the Scots, Welsh and Irish celebrate their heritage.

[cambus]

dilligaf, why should I?
It will be sung all over the world at that time of year and is not the sole preserve of England.
There is a lot more to patriotism than waving flags and singing Land of Hope Glory, as our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, will testify.

[Octavius]

Of course, so why is the last night of the proms so abhorrent to you then, if it is only mild patriotism?

[saxy_jag]

So it's OK for the Americans and non-British Europeans to go and do all their flag-waving, patriotic stuff, is it, but not for Brits to do so in their own country?

Last Night of the Proms is a traditional show of British patriotism that still attracts a very healthy and diverse mix of audiences. True, patriotism does encompass much more than this, but this is a part of it. You know, there's more to your body than your little finger, but you wouldn't chop the finger off for that reason alone, would you?

[cambus]

Thats the problem saxy_jag, its not a show of Britishness, but of Englishness, foisted upon the whole country, by the BBC.
When was the last time you saw the Welsh Eisteddfod, broadcast throughout the UK.

[Octavius]

or the Edinburgh Tattoo.... oh they did that didn't they?

And Rule, Britannia! is a British patriotic song. The emphasis is on 'British'. I can't say why the Eisteddfod is not on the BBC, maybe it is in Wales, who knows? But it is shown in Australia, Argentina and the CI.

[dilligaf]

What is wrong with a show of "Englishness" not
"Britishness".

I was born in England, my birth certificate states nationality as English but I am not allowed to call myself English,
unlike Poles, Germans, French, Irish. The list is endless.

As an Englishman and proud of it (although now having doubts) I believe my original heritage is being slowly erroded away and The Proms this year seemed to verify this, hence my original posting.

As far as waving the flag is concerned why shouldn't I wave the union flag, Flags of many nationalities were being waved at the Proms, I certainly would not object, people were enjoying themselves.

Last time England stood a chance of winning the World Cup there was flag waving everywhere you went, there was a wonderful atmosphere. Would you Cambus deny the English people this because you consider it a form of "aggressive patriotism"?