Piri Reis

[Whickerman]

Does anyone have an opinion or theory regarding the existence of the Piri Reis maps? Let's try to avoid anything involving flying saucers or ghosties, eh? Similarly, let's leave coincidence parked too.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm

If they are what they seem, these things really shouldn't exist.

[naomi24]

Oh, dear. mysteries such as this have been a lifetime study for me, and I was really very excited when I saw this question in the little grey box on the right hand side of my screen - but since you don't want anything that involves flying saucers, I'll shut up.

[Whickerman]

...well ok then Naomi - just for you.

And in your honour I'll start a series of these - glass skulls next!

[delboy3]

Although he came across as a boring smug ******** on TV, I would recommend reading Graham Hancock's Fingerprints Of The Gods, in which he gives a fairly plausible argument that human civilisation is much, much older than historians believe.

Who knows what ancient technologies have been lost and only recently "re-invented"? You could say that there are accounts of rockets and space flight in the Old Testament; one section accurately describes the Earth as viewed from high above - something not seen again since Yuri Gagarin in 1961. Spooky.

[naomi24]

Too kind Whicker. Thank you. You see I do believe that people from other planets visited earth in the distant past - and I sincerely believe that's where the legends of the Gods with all their 'magic' and 'supernatural' abilities emanated from - and that includes the biblical God. There are many artefacts, paintings and buildings on earth that could possibly back up this theory, but the Piri Reis maps are just about the best evidence we have. These maps cannot possibly be the originals, since they show the coastline of Antarctica beneath the ice, so must have been drawn long before the ice formed. Additionally, the continents appear to be elongated - exactly as they appear when photographed from space. I'll shut up for now, then, before I'm labelled once and for all as a complete and utter loony! (Don't care if I am really - I'm passionate about the subject - truly passionate - and I so wish others would take the time to study it rather than dismiss it out of hand. They could well be in for a few surprises!).

[naomi24]

delboy, not spooky at all. Perfectly feasible - it we can only get our brains away from our own concept of time, and away from our own arrogant assumption that we are the most intelligent and most advanced beings in the universe. (If that's the case, then it's a sad universe we inhabit - but I digress). Imagine beings from another planet visiting earth, say, 10,000 years ago. What if their scientific knowledge was already 10,000 years in advance of ours as it it now? Possible? Considering the age of the universe, why not?

[WaldoMcFroog]

I must confess I wasn't aware of it, but the article on Wikipedia seems to suggest that there's a much better explanation that doesn't require the complete re-writing of history, which is simply that the map isn't actually accurate and what some might take to be Antarctica is actually just the extended South American coast bent around to fit on the available skin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

[naomi24]

Waldo, The findings listed on Wikipedia are inconclusive, to say the least.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Which findings are 'inconclusive'? The ones that you want to believe or the ones you don't?

To me, it's a basic Occam's Razor job. What is more likely?

a) The fact that there are features in the supposed Southern Continent that are analogous to the South American Coast, matching approximately to shape and including flora and fauna of those ecosystems that is placed where it is due to the shape of the skin

or

b) It's a map of Antarctica which reveals that the climate of that continent was radically different from what it is today, and which necessitates false records of climate going back thousands of years being inserted into the snow such that when ice cores are drilled, they match exactly independant climate records from corals and tree rings

One scenario requires such immense complexity and technological interference (and for no actual purpose, since why would anyone want to keep Antartica a secret if it really were like the map describes?) that it becomes completely improbable and the other one is option a).

[jno]

that Option B sounds like the creationist argument, Waldo: that a certain Someone faked the planet's fossil records to delude hapless Darwinians into error.

[chakka35]

Waldo, as she revealed to me on another site, naomi is not a fan of Occam's Razor. Strange, because (apart from her views on extraterrestial visitors) she seems a woman of common-sense, and OR is as pure an example of common-sense as you can find.

[naomi24]

Chakka Thank you for that (I think!). Strange, because (apart from her views on extraterrestial visitors) ........... I have to take issue with you on that bit, though, Chakka, old chap! Because you, personally, discount the possibility, that doesn't mean it isn't possible - and frankly I think willingness to seriously consider all possibilities is basic common sense. If we don't have proof, and we don't know the answers, we can only say we don't know, and continue the search - that's if we're curious enough to continue.

Occam's Razor? Although, as I've said before, I do feel it can sometimes be a bit of a cop out - a lazy way to explain things that really ought to be investigated further - I suppose realistically I could apply it to my theory, since I'm convinced that the truth is buried in ancient texts, and it seems to me to be the most likely explanation for gods and their 'magic'.

Waldo I'm sorry - that came over the wrong way. I didn't mean that because your link doesn't agree with my theory, the findings weren't worthy of consideration. I simply meant that no one has conclusive proof. Therefore, rather than resort to Occam's Razor, and leave it at that, I believe we should continue to investigate all possibilities - including those which, to some, seem highly improbable, or even impossible. It's not a case of what I want to believe - it's simply that to me the theory of ancient astronauts having visited earth in the remote past appears to be the most plausible explanation for so many of earth's mysteries. If stronger evidence indicating otherwise presents itself, I will be very happy to say I was wrong. I would just like to know the answers - whatever they may be.

[naomi24]

Luna Thank you for that.

[123everton]

I've never heard of Piri Reis or Ocrams razor, and I distrust Wikipedia implicitly (I dtest most if not all internet based research, read a book with an ISBN and I'll listen) I don't agree that God is an alien from outer space, but I'm happy to concede the validity of the view point as it's no skin off my nose.

[naomi24]

Whicker's given a link to the Piri Reis maps, and here's one for Occam's Razor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

I know it's from Wiki, which you don't like, but it'll give you the idea.

[Gromit]

The Sumerians were around as long ago as possibly 5,500 BC. The human species originated in Africa 200,000 years ago.

It could be that the maps were based on earlier knowledge now lost. These maps were themselves 'lost' until 1929 by which time a lot of the knowledge they contained had been rediscovered by other people.

[naomi24]

I posted a link on another question showing two incredibly similar scripts found on opposite sides of the globe - one from the Indus Valley, and the other from Easter Island. That would suggest that people in the distant past travelled great distances. So the question is did they have the ability to create accurate maps - and more to the point, if the Piri Reis maps do, in fact ,show the outline of the land beneath the Antarctic ice, did they have the technology to map that, or were the original mapscreated long before the ice formed?

[123everton]

I do believe that life can exist on other planets but I tend not to believe that God is an alien. From what I can see Ockham's razor is an exercise in the sublimation of "facts" given that the truth is always were you find it one will knowingly or unknowingly discount the "facts" based on one's own personal prejudice.
Scientology seems to me a wacky idea (and slightly mysoginous) but it's no more wacky than druidism, both are modern philosophies (nobody knows how druids behaved so the Victorian's made something up) I only know about scientology from the newspapers (a poor source) and 1 TV documentary. I suppose longevity has it's place if it had been around for 400 years perhaps I'd take it more seriously, either way I don't care a jot. I don't see the harm.
One thing I do find peculiar is the theory that ley lines were inter galactic markers to help space ships navigate the Earth. They can get here through millions of miles of space no bother, but need directions to find Cleethorpes!
The notion of alien "Gods" still leaves us with the chicken and the egg scenarios so prevalent on R&S (who made the aliens?) and serves only to answer our part of the question, which then takes us back to Ockham's razor....
I wonder why after so many visits and so much intervention they stopped coming and intervening, Missouri rectal probing incidents aside?

[naomi24]

I suppose one could just as well ask why after so many visits and so much intervention, God stopped coming? Or is that coincidence?

Don't answer that. To avoid spoiling Whicker's thread, we should investigate earthly solutions for the existence of the Piri Reis maps. He specifically asked us to leave flying saucers and ghosties out of our answers (apart from very kindly allowing me a little special dispensation to alleviate my disappointment), which is why, in my previous post, I tried to lead the thread away from the subject of aliens. However, if you want to discuss it elsewhere at another time, I'll be happy to do that.

I'm going away later today, and will be gone for almost three weeks, but I'll try to pop back here this afternoon before I go.