Why isn't racism tolerated

[Oneeyedvic]

I am curious as to why we have a race relations council et cetera. Everyone is to some extent racist - ie we all make decisions based on a nationality and have stereotypical views - it may not necesarily be about race but maybe ginger people, those with moustaches, poeple called John etc etc. But even worse is positive discrimination - the jobs advertised by the council that guarantee an interview to a minority - it always makes me think that poeple may not be getting in on merit but on race. Why not abolish all these laws. If poepl are racist, so be it. They are the losers. If they don't want to employ a black person then would they want to work there anyway? If you are refused to be served in a shop because they are racist, would you want to give them your money anyway? I am of Sri Lankan origin but was born in this country. I have had a fair amount of racism against me, but can't say it really bothers me anymore. My wife is white. I get very annoyed with the bogus asylum seekers - I know for a fact that some of them are bogus and their lives are not in danger if they go back to their country. I have relatives who have come over from Sri Lanka - though I must confess I did shop one to the DSS for claiming and working - I also no longer get on with my family. So as you can see, I may be termed racist by my own family Any comments? - or will this be edited out?

[Another Dave]

Civil wars, Oneeyedvic. Civil wars are mainly caused by conflicts between races and religions.

[Clanad]

An interesting question... but for there to be true "tolerance" of racisim, would require that each "minority" to have equal power in a society. Having grown up in the south of the US in the 40's and 50's, I remember well travelling by train as a child and seeing each small station have signs saying "colored only" and drinking fountains labeled "white only". The problem was that the facilities delegated to the minorities were always inferior to those reserved for the majority. I've noticed that in cases where all things are generally equal, the races tend to divide to themselves anyway. Not always, but generally. I don't think the utopia of a truly homogenous society is possible. Therefore, the "tyranny of the majority" needs to be held in check. As you've pointed out, merit must have some play in the mix though.

[el duerino]

Legally in a democracy, for it to work properly, everyone must enjoy an equal status. Its not so much that we cannot be racist, more that we cannot legally discriminate against people who hold equal status to ourselves. Interesting question. I agree that positive discrimination is without a doubt the stupidest concept ever invented. Do these people actually understand the connotations of what they say?

[Maud]

In England and Wales The Race Relations Act 1976, as amended by the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000, makes it unlawful to discriminate against anyone on grounds of race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origin. The amended Act also imposes general duties to promote racial equality. It applies to: jobs training housing education the provision of goods, facilities and services It is also unlawful to discriminate while carrying out any function. The amended Act imposes a general duty to promote equality of opportunity and good race relations. Local Authorities have very specific and detailed conditions to fulfil under the Amended Act, and cannot act otherwise. The Amended Act also criminalises printed racist publications, pamphlets, etc and just about every other way that racist views can be expressed. The same applies generally to Scotland, but they have their own Acts.

[secretspirit]

I think you're right, positive discrimination (e.g. the guaranteed interviews) can cause as much bad feeling as negative discrimination. It's a shame the world can't work with everyone being taken at their own merit regardless of race but I don't think it will ever go away.

[Oneeyedvic]

That is my point - it won't ever go away. Why therefore do we need to legislate for it. As I said, if an employer doesn't want to employ a person from a minority group so be it. Even though legislation is in place, chances are he still won't. And would the prospective employee want to work for a racist employer? So why bother legislating. All it does do is (rather ironically) promote racism. The BNP can only get in becasuse people perceive that minority groups are being treated better than English white poeple. If there was a level playing field I doubt there would be so much of a problem. My wife has worked in council enviroments where ethnic minorities are promoted far beyond there capabilities purely down to colour. If the police stop more black or asian people so be it. I have been stopped several times by police, but being a law abiding citizen it really does not bother me. The only reason poeple don't like it is because they have a chip on their shoulder and cite the reason as racism (not becasue they were known criminals hanging round). You get my point.

[cruthinboy]

Careful Oneeyedvic you're treading on thin ice here - you'll go the same way as EliPledge (see Iraqi hotage posting under News)!

[Oneeyedvic]

I don't think I am being racist - I just want a sensible discussion about racism - and that involves talking about stereotypical viewpoints. If I am offending anybody I apologise 100%.

[woofgang]

As individuals, we are always going to have opinions and preferences. What cannot be allowed is for these to colour (no pun intended) what society does. The best examples that I can think of AND NO OFFENCE IS INTENDED would be things like a court deciding that someone is guilty because they are black or a terrorist because they are Muslim. Equally if you have lived through the era of certain jobs being appropriate for women and others not, then you are going to have strong anti discrimination views on that too. I am absolutely with you on "quotas" and positve discrimination and I always refuse to gove my "ethnic background" when asked. BTW did you know that when that question is asked, the recorder is expected to record the ethnic background that the responder "feels themselves to be" without any consideration of the truth or reality of the statement. Much harmless fun can be had by "feeling" chinese one day and african the next!!!

[cruthinboy]

I was joking Oneeyedvic: I didn't think EliPledge was racist either - as I pointed out Islam is NOT a race, it's a religion - so accuse Islam haters of religious bigotry if you wish, but please not racism!

[el duerino]

well thats the flipside of the quota system - another diabolically stupid idea thought up by people who have no idea of the ramifications of their do-gooder policies. I hate them. Anyway - unfortunately, it is undeniable that most ethnic minorities, for whatever reason, have not permeated to the level where they can account for job creation. If white people only gave white people jobs, the vast majority of minorities would find themselves in menial jobs. Would you be happy in that situation? It completely undermines the ideal of equality which is what our current society strives for - we haven't succeeded yet, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. Human civilisation has been built on the search for ideals, if we 'accept' the situation we stop trying to solve it, and personally I do not want to be involved in a movement that might set our social interactions back by hundreds of years. We are all the same - we are all human. If someone can give a good reason for racism apart from human failings then I would consider it.

[sharp1]

in my view I dont carry any racism that im aware of, I think rasism is in such a minority of the population its almost vanished from society. I have a feeling that sometimes if your of different creed or religion and your boss was to not include you in a task, or invite you somewhere...in the eye of the uninvited it is assumed its because of their colour or religion. where it probably isnt for that reason at all. another example is from a book i read, where a black man traveled to work everyday by train and said no-one ever looks at me, smiles at me or even acknowledges that im there. he went on to say he's used to this behaviour being a black man. Err no its because your a stranger on a train and everyones tired, and yes no-one notices you weather your white or black, asian or islamic. he must of had an inferiority complex, which is quite common i feel.

[woofgang]

sharp1 sadly prejudice is not yet vanished from society...try sitting in a wheelchair for a day!

[Oneeyedvic]

I think a lot of poeple are mising my point - iam not suggesting that white people should employ other white people - I am saying that racists should be allowed to emply who they want - so yes there will be some white boses who will only employ white people but I think the majority of people will continue to employ people who are good at their job. Also, I agree wiith sharp1 - a lot of people do have a complex. It is not because you are coloured; in a wheelchair; are ginger but because of your personality. I find that if I walk down the street and say good morning and smile, most people return the favour - if I look mean, hunch over and act intimidating (i have a long black leather coat ala Matrix) people do not make eye contact and hasten by. This is not because I am coloured but because of the way I dress / act.

[el duerino]

it doesnt help that a lot of ethnics tend to play up to their image ie young black guys trying to be bad ass rappers/gansters wotever. You can't have your cake and eat it, if you want to fit into a society you can't pretend you're a rogue element. This is also true with a lot of other communities. Thing is tho - why can these people make these decisions based upon their personal opinions? More often that not, the people who employ others or make the decision are not the ones who will benefit from such a decision.

[Bohne]

How far would your toleration go? People being killed for being Black/Asien/etc. Would that be OK for you? Also for getting a job. It might be easy to say when you have one. I was told in a job interview once, that if it was up to my future boss, he would not employ women. However it was required by law to have a woman on each team and when I was offered the job, I took it. I think everybody is entitled to think whatever they want, they can even say it, as long as nobody gets hurt.

[cruthinboy]

How about people being killed for being white??? Ever heard of: Lee Martin, Ashley Hedger, Richard Everett ...? Thought not? Heard of Stephen Lawrence? Thought so. I sense a ban coming on!

[jimmer]

well here's your chance to educate us cruthin boy.

[jimmer]

Quotas etc can make a real difference in changing the norms in society and over time help foster better relations between groups and lead to a system where a job applicant is judged on merit. in the recent past there were very few women bosses and this was seen by most people as logical ( woman as housewife). through years of legislation and education the situation has improved - although by no means to complete equality - so that now a woman attending a job interview has more chance of being judged on her ability to do the job. there is still a long way to go but one can see how sensible planning has helped us to move towards equality. Now, if a woman goes for a job in a small company and there is a real old school interviewer who thinks a womans place is in the home, she probably wont get the job and that will be that. In a large company the interviewer will have been trained well and will know the law. As a consequence more women get meaningful jobs. Because they do these jobs as well as men employers start to see the benefits and negative stereotypes disappear and we need less and less legislation to control the market. ( all you need do is substitute a disadvantaged group for "women" in the above )

[jimmer]

OK oneeyedvic, now to talk about Race. It is quite clear from the above that none of you are talking about italians or french people. The problem that legislators have to address nowadays is not so much overt racism ( such as the BNP )as racial stereotyping . many comments on this thread fall into the "i have nothing against black people but..." type of attitude. In this thread talking about why we need legislation there have been few opportunities wasted to get in a few digs about black people "having a chip on their shoulder" or "people ...have a complex.... because of their personality". so you dont have to be a BNP supporter to hold stereotyical views about another race. Legislation cannot solve all our problems but equally it is not to be feared when it trys to address fundamental weaknesses in our socity which harm all of us jim