Has time eroded our morality?

[creativeTECH]

Has time eroded our morality?
Hitler invades Poland, WW2 ensues. bush invades Iraq...nothing happens...Now looking at the facts, Hitler was elected. bush wasn't; "hail the thief". Gore had the popular vote, go do the math. German troops committed a plethora of atrocities; the planet cries out for justice. American troops commit atrocities, what happens? Guantanomo Bay, houses people against their will, they have not been accused of anything, they have not been charged, they are tortured, some would say persecuted for their beliefs...How far away is this level of enforced detention from that of concentration camps in WW2? The outcry from WW2 was "never again"�People did not act because of ignorance, they "didn't know" what was going on in the concentration camps of Nazis Germany until the camps were liberated�So once Guantanomo Bay is "liberated", what will we find?. Do we ever learn? Discuss, papers to be presented by end of class today.

[Octavius]

I think you have genocide and the war against terrorism in a bit of a cafuffle. 

[ICEMANSAV]

I second Octavius.

[kingbob]

you say We, like you are just talking about the westen world, it's like the us marine shooting dead that Wounded Iraqi, and people seem to think that is out of order but tell me this, you don't see iraqi fighters walking around with press reporters or trying to keep to the rules of engagement, instead they chop aid workers heads off, so basicly they can act like dog's but if we do it, thats it, a good case of propergander gone wrong.  

[bernardo]

Now looking at the facts, Hitler was elected. bush wasn't; "hail the thief". Gore had the popular vote, go do the math.

 

Bush was elected by a majority in the electoral college.  The USA constitution has never been about getting a majority of the popular vote, and was nevger intended to.  It was always intended to be about balancing the influence of small and large states.

 

Hitler was not elected.  He was appointed as Chancellor by President Hindenburg.  The Nazi Party then came to power through a mixture of fraud, violence, intimidation and street-fighting.  Even the Enabling Act was only passed because most of the opposition MPs were imprisoned or killed or intimidated.

[Ralph]

To answer the question, I don't believe we learn (the collective we, not you, me and those guys over there). It was rememberance day recently, yet there isn't enough emphasis on remembering the important things. It is right to remember the people who died in the wars, but it is arguably more important to remember why the war (WWII) was fought in the first place. Some guy decided that he and his were the greatest on the planet and deserved more life, wealth, land and influence than they currently had. He persuaded the people that one particular group of people were responsible for all their ills and should be severely punished. Also, his neighbours didn't deserve what they had and they should have it taken away from them. The world disagreed and a war started.

The lesson I see from this is intolerance and ignorance can only lead to bad things. Killing people to get your own way rarely works, it gets the oppositions back up. Simple lessons like that. Not learning these lessons is meaning that the people who were remembered on rememberance day have effectively died in vain because we will continue to do all the bad stuff we always did.

All too often, the only thing that is remembered from WWII is "we won, we're the best in the world".

[bernardo]

The illiberal and unacceptable detention of suspects without due process in Guantanamo Bay is one symptom of the temporary hysteria through which the USA government is passing.  It is similar to the McCarthyite era, and will pass accordingly.

[creativeTECH]

Ralph thank you. You're the only one who got it. Well so far anyway.....As for me?.. I'm just a person who is bored at work today, and I'm not best pleased with mr.bush, or the profanity by which his countrymen have swept under the carpet, so many issues of liberty, under the guise of process. I'm neither a Democrat or Republican, just a guy who knows when something stinks...Just as it stinks when innocent people have their heads hacked and recorded on video. At this moment in time the planet sucks. lets stop pointing fingers, take stock that we're all as guilty as hell as the next guy, and try to actually make liberty and peace a reality not a spiel used by politicians / military leaders pretending to be icons of power....we are all ultimately responsible for the actions of each other. Apathy is the greatest crime.

[Bangkok]

I hope Bernardo is right, as I fear that history will damn this period.  All generations have had to put up with hypocrisy, but never so obviously.  I agree the analogy is ill considered, but the underlying issue is still significant

[2nd row]

 and i second Icemansav.      bernardo, twaffle again, as usual, HITLER, as you say, was not elected, but choosen and then followed  with complete dedication by the majority of the german people, can you now name other leaders of other nations who have followed in what that man done ?  dont use squiggly writing stuff please ! does my head in ! but before that, facts right please..... open your own thread,  i'm waiting .

[mash]

While I feel that Bush has much to answer for and is a pityfull example of a 'world leader' I would not seek to compare him with Hitler.

[bernardo]

bernardo, twaffle again,

What is "taffle"?  Is it a flavour of ice-cream?

 

as usual,

I am usually and always completely brilliant, if that's what you mean.

 

 HITLER, as you say, was not elected, but choosen and then followed  with complete dedication by the majority of the german people,

Complete dedication?  Majority?  I think not...

 

can you now name other leaders of other nations who have followed in what that man done ?

Which nations do you mean?

 

dont use squiggly writing stuff please ! does my head in !

Squiggly?  Do you mean like this?

 

but before that, facts right please.....

I always get my facts right.

 

 open your own thread,  i'm waiting .

Why should I "open my own thread"?  You mean "ask my own question"?  If I want to ask a question on this site then I will do so without being dictated to do so by you or anybody else. 

[bernardo]

Who stole the W out of my twaffle?! 

[undercovers]

me - undercoWvers

[Octavius]

I know somewhere where you can find find another dubya

[georgit79]

..and I'm not going to be able to contribute anything helpful as I'm still sniggering at the fact that you wrote "math". Sorry, I'm not Anti-American or anything (unless it's Paris Hilton), but you do have some silly words....it's maths! Mathematics. I'll shut up now.

[georgit79]

Bush has more morality than Hitler. Fact. Therefore time has not eroded morality.

[Bangkok]

Unfortuntely this thread lost it's way a little, as the underlying question is a good one.  Yes, we learn, but seemingly at the speed of evolution rather than within a generation. 

The scale of the US atrocities cannot be compared to anything Hitler led, and the emotional reaction to the comparison will detract from the question.  Why do we allow the US to ignore international (and US) law merely because it suits their purposes.  Why was Hitler appeased by, amongst others, Halifax and Chamberlain?  Because it was easier to appease / do nothing than to address the issue with the gravity it deserved.  Churchill spotted the flaw in the plan and ultimately had the opportunity to act on it (he was an outspoken critic of appeasement prior to the war).

 

Who can fulfill the role of a modern day Churchill?  Who can assess where the ignorance of international law (particularly the Geneva Convention) is leading us?  The other leaders of major nations are concerned not to be in too much conflict with the US (trade and investment problems).  The Press?  No chance, because they have lost the trust of the majority.  The electorate?  In theory yes, but the spin means they don't know enough facts to make an informed decision.  Now if we could get the US to take the UN more seriously, there may be hope!  Kofi Annan has integrity and intelligence.