A massive shift in our culture

[Pufflette]

Do you ever sit back and think how much our culture has changed in only generation? My mum grew up in several rural communities in the 1950s. She recounts stories of one boy being kicked repeatedly up the corridor by the deputy head master to be caned for telling a teacher to F*** off. A former English teacher told me that the headmaster came into the classroom and slapped and punched every single student because all but one had not done their homework. The headmaster lifted one pupil out of his seat and knocked him unconscious by throwing him. It seems so unlikely but in 1950s culture this was acceptable.

[karenmac60]

It went on long beyond the 50's, just more discreetly. My dad was a teacher until the late 80's and even up till then he witnessed physical abuse of pupils by teachers.

[jno]

never happened to me when I was at school. Corporal punishment was permitted but that was a fairly formal affair and had to be logged. I never saw any other form of physical contact apart from teachers throwing the odd bit of chalk. I can't speak for other schools, though.

I reckon knocking a pupil unconscious would have been just as unacceptable then as now and would have laid the teacher open to an assault charge and losing his job. Most parents would have gone ballistic.

[TTG]

Maybe the kids were too scared to complain. I think the best balance was in the 1970's. Althougn it always seemed the same kids getting the cane.

[daffy654]

A teacher at my high school threw a blackboard rubber at a female pupil,it gave her a nasty black eye but he was never reprimanded for it. The excuse he gave was that he was stressed due to his wife having recently committed suicide - he should not have been teaching at this time in my opinion.

[Sqad]

"Knocked unconscious"
"Kicked up the corridor"
"Slapped an punched all the class"

I do not recollect any of the above, only being caned when lack of discipline entered into it.

Now we cannot resort to corporal punishment, in the 60's-70's..........has our society become less violent and hostile?..................I don't think so.

[jake-the-peg]

And you link the two do you?

Despite the fact that most violent people come from violent families

Actually violent crime is falling - violence against the person is at its lowest since 2002 and violent incidents have fallen by a half since 1995

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1109chap3.pdf

But this isn't the story that the press wants to tell so they zoom in and focus on particular incidents to give people the "Broken Britain" story on anacdotal evidence because the statistics don't back them up.

Seems rather an effective technique

[Sqad]

Jake....yes I do................but inversely. Surely, if eliminating corporal punishment in the school, this should be a less violent society.

Your link.....this only goes back to 1995.....some 14yrs............we should be going back a generation, 40yrs to obtain meaningful statistics.

[jake-the-peg]

Why do you link crime and the decline in corporal punishment.

(I disagree with your observation on crime but lets assume for sake of argument that you are right)

Society has changed in many other ways - Media role models have become more violent. People's aspirations to wealth have become stronger and much more competetive and there have been many many more changes.

I think it is unlikely that the occasional rap over the knuckles would offset those.

But fundamentally - corporal punishment provides a reinforcement of the idea that violence is acceptable.

Try this experiment

"It's OK to slap a child who's misbehaving" - agree

Replace the word "chlid" with "wife" - still agree

If you are OK with using violence to force one more vulnerable person to your will you should be OK with using it on another.

Now tel me - have you had children? - did you hit them? or is it just other peoples kids you want beaten?

[Sqad]

Your first paragraph....answer: You feel that we live in a less violent society, but to answer your question....the increase in crime is multifactorial, abolishment of corporal punishment being only one of a number of factors...in my opinion.

Rap over the knuckles....maybe be fruitless, but we will never know........will we.

Wife/child....this is a fallacious argument as we are dealing with differing reasons.
The child, to teach him what is right and wrong and also the value of discipline. The wife.....no idea what you are doing it for.

Did I use force (smack them)?....certainly did when necessary.
What method other people use to discipline their children is up to them.

[heathfield]

Physical punishment - (ahh! I remember it only too well) - imposed a fear of authority on youngsters that lasted most people into their adult life. These days, children have no fear of authority, so neither will they as adults.

In nature, most adult animals will physically punish an offspring that is overly misbehaving. The offspring learn by this how to take part in an orderly family or social group, to the advantage of that family or group.

Jake, you cannot swap ''child'' and ''wife'' like that. Despite what do-gooders tell us, trying to use reason with an unruly small child is unlikely to prove successful. However, unlike an infant, a wife is (hopefully), a mature adult with fully developed reasoning powers, so that discussion can be used to provide a satisfactory outcome.

[Seadragon]

Gosh there are some strong opinions here. Although I have to say Jake, I thought your last sentence of the 9.55 post to Sqad -..'have you had children? - did you hit them? or is it just other peoples kids you want beaten?' was abit strong. I took a gasp at that and amazingly Sqad is really good to reply to you with civility. Although I don't approve of smacking in any sense of the word, whether it is a child or wife - in that respect I agree with you Jake. But each to their own, some people smack their kids in whatever manner others don't. Some kids it affects others it doesn't.

I highly recommend the programme 'The World's Strictest Parents' don't know if it was on BBC 1 but currently on BBC 3. Yesterday 1st episode of 9. BBC iPlayer I don't know. But it showed the worst teenagers imaginable - properly screwed up and the 1st episode showed 2 of them placed with a devout Christian family in the States for 2 weeks? And it showed how persistent encouragement, parental authority in the sense that the kids had no choice but to respect their 'new parents' and their rules irrevelant of whether they agreed with rules, understanding and overall physical love - the amount of times they hugged these kids right after disciplining them had such a positive effect on these kids, it was amazing.

The problem is all this takes time, a great deal of energy and an abundance of patience and Heathfield this reasoning works with all kids whatever their age. Sorry Pufflette, I would like to try and discuss your post, just popping out for abit and felt somewhat passionate about these posts.

[jake-the-peg]

Sorry - not getting drawn into this further

People who think it's OK to hit children is one of the few things that really gets me angry

I will just say

The only reason you cannot swap child and wife is exposes the unaceptability of your position (children certainly can be reasoned with)

[mibn2cweus]

I must agree entirely with Jake on this one, with one caveat; parents who abuse their children demonstrate to their children and often to the public at large with unfortunate consequences for all, that they themselves have not learned to be reasonable.

[Seadragon]

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you Jake, I don't advocate hitting either, have never and won't ever hit a child. But I know parents who believe smacking on the hand or bum is fine. They don't have or want to have or don't know how to invest in the time for disciplining their child through love, encouragement and praise - in the context I stated above. This my sister experiences as a Health Visitor. In this respect some Reality programmes are good at showing a different form of parenting. And I'm not personally criticising you Sqad and I'm certainly not saying you beat the life out of your kids - I hope!

Anyway Pufflette (I should get off this thread, I do more harm than good!) I am for school punishment within reason and for persistent nuances after all other methods fail eg after school written lines, extra homework, standing in the corner, withdrawal of breaks etc. I had sellotape over my mouth, for talking (others had the pump across the hand). I think kids understand the difference between home and school and if they're not taught respect at home then they should be taught to respect others outside the home. It becomes a problem when parents who don't discipline well get involved by disagreeing with say their child being reprimanded. I'm finding your discussion difficult Pufflette, because overall I believe in the 'love and support' method.

[Seadragon]

I don't like getting into personal details on here but my older brother beat me and my sister for not doing our chores. He didn't need to as my mum beat us anyway with a stick. But the funny is that as we got older and he eventually married, he never ever laid a finger on his wife or kids. I just don't understand it. I don't want him to ever lay another hand on anyone but this is the same guy who pinned me against a wall with his hands around my neck, angrily shounting his head off in my face, whilst I gasped for breadth. You would never know?

[Pufflette]

Thanks for your informative answers. Even though I don't agree with them you've certainly put a lot of effort into your posts. Thanks again