Belgium Rules on the Bourke

[TWR]

Are they right? think about a road accident with one of these people, you stop but they carry on although you have their Reg what chance have you to recognise the driver that was involved in the accident? Should this policy apply in the UK? or are we AGAIN afraid to offend? It's getting to something when you cannot voice your views without the HR Brigade shouting, the anti racist piping up, OH by the way, I work with, I work alongside, we share the same views, this is just to clarify my statement!!

[Oneeyedvic]

think about a road accident with one of these people, you stop but they carry on although you have their Reg what chance have you to recognise the driver that was involved in the accident?

Do you use the road much?

Personally I have seen a lot more bikers on the road (with crash helmets) that burkha wearing drivers.

I have also been the victim of a hit and run driver - and although they weren't wearing a burkha, I didn't get a good view of them!

[brionon]

To have compulsary ID cards and to allow face masking is,patently,daft .

[TWR]

I use the road every day Oneeyedvic, to add, are Motorcyclist allowed into a bank with their helmets on? I doubt it.

[Oneeyedvic]

And if a bank banned all headgear (including Burkhas) I would have no issue with that.

But there is a difference between security issues and people being afraid of a woman because she elects to cover her face or because of her religion

If I see a Muslim wearing the full regalia, I am far less intimidated by her than I would be by three 6 foot lads with tattoos all over their bare arms. Should we therefore ban tattoos?

[rojash]

"6 foot lads with tattoos all over their bare arms. Should we therefore ban tattoos? "

No, it would make more sense to ban 6 foot lads

[brionon]

Oneeyedvic Wearing a Burka ? And you KNOW it's a woman HOW ?

[boxtops]

There was a thread on this topic yesterday. The general consensus seemed to be that anything completely hiding the face is not a good thing, but burkha-wearers should not in general be seen as threatening. OEV's post sums it up very well, I am far more afraid of other apparently aggresive-looking people than a covered female!

[chakka35]

boxtops, just as a matter of interest, how do you know whether or not the female is "aggressive looking" if you can't see her?

It is the sheer bad manners of it that gets me, somthing which is never discussed.

[boxtops]

Sorry chakka, the agressive-looking people I meant are the ones you see every day hanging around the town and looking (to me) somewhat threatening, especially when there is a gang of them. I wouldn't know what facial expression someone wearing a burkha is sporting, I agree. I don't understand though how choosing to comply with religious and/or cultural clothing could be designated bad manners, but I guess this is something where we may have to agree to differ.

[naomi24]

Yes, they are right. It's simply wrong that one small section of the population is exempt from rules that apply to the majority.

[Oneeyedvic]

naomi - Yes, they are right. It's simply wrong that one small section of the population is exempt from rules that apply to the majority.

Are you talking about banks or something else? There is no law about face concealment in the UK

[naomi24]

Vic, I know there is no law currently in force, which is why I said 'rules'. Yes, I was talking about security situations, although I think the ruling should be extended to all public places. I can't see why the public at large should be expected to accept being subjected to the scrutiny of CCTV wherever they go, when a small minority are not. The police can't possibly identify a pickpocket in the street - and a shopkeeper has no hope of identifying a shoplifter - if the culprit is wearing exactly the same clothing as a number of other people and the face is concealed.

[Coobeastie]

I may be completely wrong but I don't think they wear Burkas whilst driving.

[naomi24]

^^I might be wrong, but I don't believe there's any law against it in this country.

[chakka35]

Oh, boxtops, we don't agree to differ that easily in this site!

What I mean by bad manners is this - and it goes much further than the clothing: I would not dream of walking into a room, office, home, classroom with my face covered so that people could not see my expressions and work out my mood, attitude and intentions. That would be grossly discourteous.

As it was when a young Muslim police cadet refused to shake hands with the Chief Constable on her passing-out parade because her religion forbade her to touch a man who was not closely related. And the senior Jewish leader who refused to shake hands with a group of ladies he was meeting formally in case one of them was menstruating, which would make him unclean.

Religious belief is no excuse for loutish behaviour.

[hc4361]

Of course they wear the burkha whilst driving as they do with every other day to day aspect of their lives.
If it is okay to wear a burkha, is it okay to go out like this in public? And if not, why not?
http://www.topnews.in...ux-klan-outfit-244868
Or this?
http://philbaucom.wor...-you-like-a-ski-mask/
Or this
http://www.sportsbike...parts/content_cat/797
A woman wears a burkha because she believes the sight of her face or bare arms will cause me to think of her in a sexual way and be tempted to rape her. I object very strongly to this assumption. I want to be able to interact and converse easily with everybody I meet and I cannot do this when the person insists on keeping his or her face covered. It is impossible for those dependent on lip reading. It is a barrier to society that I object very strongly to.
If people feel they must be covered from head to toe inside their place of worship I have no objection to that.
I do not want my children to be taught by anybody hiding their face.
I do not want my elderly mother to be cared for by anybody hiding their face.
This is not racial prejudice - I don't care what race, creed or colour they are. I just want them to show their face and be open.

[Oneeyedvic]

naomi - I can't see why the public at large should be expected to accept being subjected to the scrutiny of CCTV wherever they go, when a small minority are not

It is your (and my) choice as to whether you want to share your face in public. There is no law preventing you (or me) from doing this. We are not 'expected to' - it just happens that most people choose to.

hc4361 - //A woman wears a burkha because she believes the sight of her face or bare arms will cause me to think of her in a sexual way and be tempted to rape her. I object very strongly to this assumption. /// What a load of poppycock. There are many different interpretations of the burqa and to try and pick one shows amazing naivety,

You mention that is is a barrier to communication - if you were blind, would you be able to communicate with Burqa clad women? Do you need sight to be able to have a meaningful relationship. Is a child who is blind incapable of being taught as they can't see their teachers face?

The only barrier to society is the intolerance of people

[naomi24]

Vic, yes, I can walk the streets wearing a mask if I want to, but I am expected to, and obliged to, reveal my identity in certain situations. If I entered an airport building, or a bank, or a shop, wearing a mask, I'd be made to remove it, so tell me why I am deemed less trustworthy than a woman who chooses to shroud herself from head to toe in a burkha?
.
I'm sick of this word 'tolerance' because the tolerance that people like you constantly demand is expected to work only one way. People here bang on about the possibility of Muslim women being 'criminalised', but the fact is it's the rest of society that is being criminalised right now by being obliged to reveal their identities in certain situations when a small minority are not.

And what do you expect society to tolerate anyway? It can't be religion because Islam doesn't demand that people cover their faces, so these women can't in all honesty use that as an excuse, and neither can you. If there are rules in this regard, and there are, then they should apply to all, without exception. There is no valid reason to bend the rules to accommodate anyone's personal preferences.

As for your post to hc4361, actually, I think that's appallingly insulting. Unlike the women who choose to wear burkhas - and it is a choice - the blind have no choice. They do not deliberately choose to distance themselves from the rest of society.

[naomi24]

Vic, //There are many different interpretations of the burqa and to try and pick one shows amazing naivety, //

Actually, it's you who is showing amazing naivety in this instance. Islamic women are told they must not display their beauty and they do cover themselves for fear of attracting the attentions of men. In fact for the same reason, Islamic literature even bans them from allowing their bracelets to jangle!!