Crosswords4 mins ago
Without religion, would society fall apart?
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Say, somehow it was proved that there was no God, and that when you die all that remains is your body, no soul, no afterlife. If this was proved inconclusively, would society fall apart, as people would know there is no punishment after death for any act committed on earth?
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I do work for a living you know.
I have answered the question, as has been quite corretly pointed out.
The perspective I've taken, further to the question, is what is the alternitive?
The reality, as unwelcome as I'd find any theocratic regime to live in, it is ultimately a lot better than the state sponsored atheist ones, with the exception (perhaps) of pre P.R.C Tibet which westerners eulogise and fawn over constantly.
It seems to far too unpleasnt a fact for some to countenance that when religious freedoms are denied society itself disintegrates.
Takes all sorts to make a world, to dismiss religion as irrelevant because it doesn't matter to them is a statement of immense ignorance.
Who are we decide the things that matter to others?
Lots of people don't get football, I don't get cricket, is cricket irrelevant?
Only to me, and maybe a few others, doesn't make it any less valid though.
I try not to condemn things I dislike or don't understand, I'm loathe to judge anyone, it's a good perspective (I think).
Some ought to try it, save us all a lot of work....
I have answered the question, as has been quite corretly pointed out.
The perspective I've taken, further to the question, is what is the alternitive?
The reality, as unwelcome as I'd find any theocratic regime to live in, it is ultimately a lot better than the state sponsored atheist ones, with the exception (perhaps) of pre P.R.C Tibet which westerners eulogise and fawn over constantly.
It seems to far too unpleasnt a fact for some to countenance that when religious freedoms are denied society itself disintegrates.
Takes all sorts to make a world, to dismiss religion as irrelevant because it doesn't matter to them is a statement of immense ignorance.
Who are we decide the things that matter to others?
Lots of people don't get football, I don't get cricket, is cricket irrelevant?
Only to me, and maybe a few others, doesn't make it any less valid though.
I try not to condemn things I dislike or don't understand, I'm loathe to judge anyone, it's a good perspective (I think).
Some ought to try it, save us all a lot of work....
Ankou, do you argue just for the sake of arguing? why do you come on here to make yourself look a fool so often.
"people saying they do all these things for no personal benefit whatsoever is simply inaccurate"
I receive great benefit from my work, I enjoy every minute of every day. When I'm not working I frequently go to work on a voluntary basis and take my dogs to the home, I sit and do activities with the residents or sit and just enjoy their company as they enjoy mine, my Partner usually comes with me. I get no financial reward I just thoroughly enjoy what I do.
I think you will probably find that a bit strange Ankou!
"people saying they do all these things for no personal benefit whatsoever is simply inaccurate"
I receive great benefit from my work, I enjoy every minute of every day. When I'm not working I frequently go to work on a voluntary basis and take my dogs to the home, I sit and do activities with the residents or sit and just enjoy their company as they enjoy mine, my Partner usually comes with me. I get no financial reward I just thoroughly enjoy what I do.
I think you will probably find that a bit strange Ankou!
Everton, yes, most of us work for a living, and no one was rushing you.
Again I repeat, politics are irrelevant to this discussion. The question does not involve religious freedoms being denied - it asks if society would collapse if it were proven that God does not exist. There is no alternative to consider.
Again I repeat, politics are irrelevant to this discussion. The question does not involve religious freedoms being denied - it asks if society would collapse if it were proven that God does not exist. There is no alternative to consider.
An atheist will say quite clearly that there is no God and offer the proof.
In the Soviet Union you would not have found a single member of the Politburo who'd say that God existed (apart from a short spell in 1943 onwards when the Soviet Union faced collapse), so whether there is an alternitive or not, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, it has been tried.
Societies that have denied God have been awful places to live, I still can't think of one that wasn't, and I love my history.
In the Soviet Union you would not have found a single member of the Politburo who'd say that God existed (apart from a short spell in 1943 onwards when the Soviet Union faced collapse), so whether there is an alternitive or not, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, it has been tried.
Societies that have denied God have been awful places to live, I still can't think of one that wasn't, and I love my history.
Scandanavia is a region not a country.
Read up on the children's home scandals of the 1950s (horrific), furthermore in the region religion is allowed etc.
The questioner is pondering a world without religion, I'm offering the experiences so far of such a society.
Society wouldn't end, it'd just be quite dull, quite miserable and with varying levels of oppression and personal intrusion.
The nice people would be nice, the nasty people would be nasty, the ones with an ear for religion would flock to politics (as most of us want to save the world) and the dissenters would be punished.
Read up on the children's home scandals of the 1950s (horrific), furthermore in the region religion is allowed etc.
The questioner is pondering a world without religion, I'm offering the experiences so far of such a society.
Society wouldn't end, it'd just be quite dull, quite miserable and with varying levels of oppression and personal intrusion.
The nice people would be nice, the nasty people would be nasty, the ones with an ear for religion would flock to politics (as most of us want to save the world) and the dissenters would be punished.
Everton, where in my post did I say Scandinavia was a country?
Where in my post did I say religion was not allowed?
Where in my post did I say there was zero crime in Scandinavia?
(and you did have to go back to the 50s to find that, try more recent history like this year and the some of these disgusting, perverted priests who pray on young children all over the world!!)
I actually see Catholics as supporters of these disgusting acts and its perpetrators, if it was any other organisation that was tarnished by these perverts so regularly, the masses would leave in there droves but no!! catholics are to proud, they will support the barbaric institution to the end, no matter what they do!!
I actually see my life as far more enriched by the freedom of Atheism, I'm not oppressed by any religion or a God, and far from being dull, I have no fear of death because I know when I die it is the end! I have no fear of hell unlike many christian.
I really don't understand why there would be any intrusion, you think religion prevents intrusion?
I think society would live without religion very easily, they would feel free and more responsible for there own actions!
Your views are very typical of die hard Christians who cannot see beyond christianity as you are totally brain washed to the point that you cannot think for yourself, you really need that crutch of Christianity, I actually feel sorry for you because you will never see the light of total freedom and understand just how nice it is to be totally free.
Where in my post did I say religion was not allowed?
Where in my post did I say there was zero crime in Scandinavia?
(and you did have to go back to the 50s to find that, try more recent history like this year and the some of these disgusting, perverted priests who pray on young children all over the world!!)
I actually see Catholics as supporters of these disgusting acts and its perpetrators, if it was any other organisation that was tarnished by these perverts so regularly, the masses would leave in there droves but no!! catholics are to proud, they will support the barbaric institution to the end, no matter what they do!!
I actually see my life as far more enriched by the freedom of Atheism, I'm not oppressed by any religion or a God, and far from being dull, I have no fear of death because I know when I die it is the end! I have no fear of hell unlike many christian.
I really don't understand why there would be any intrusion, you think religion prevents intrusion?
I think society would live without religion very easily, they would feel free and more responsible for there own actions!
Your views are very typical of die hard Christians who cannot see beyond christianity as you are totally brain washed to the point that you cannot think for yourself, you really need that crutch of Christianity, I actually feel sorry for you because you will never see the light of total freedom and understand just how nice it is to be totally free.
Everton, //The questioner is pondering a world without religion//
No, that doesn't go nearly far enough. He's pondering a world in which God is proven to be non-existent. There would be no religious oppression because if it were proven that God did not exist, then religion would not exist. That and the scenario you are continuing to talk about are quite different. What's so difficult to understand? Can't you imagine a world where nobody believes in God?
It's interesting that you think a world without religion would be dull and miserable. That implies that religion brings brightness and happiness to this planet, but in my opinion it brings quite the opposite.
No, that doesn't go nearly far enough. He's pondering a world in which God is proven to be non-existent. There would be no religious oppression because if it were proven that God did not exist, then religion would not exist. That and the scenario you are continuing to talk about are quite different. What's so difficult to understand? Can't you imagine a world where nobody believes in God?
It's interesting that you think a world without religion would be dull and miserable. That implies that religion brings brightness and happiness to this planet, but in my opinion it brings quite the opposite.
Actually, talking about oppressive regimes and other countries is irrelevant, because the whole world is affected by religion in some way. Therefore nothing we currently know can compare to a world where religion simply does not exist - and that's the sort of world we're discussing. Forget religion.
Yes, but it would stil be repressive.
It's a tad childish tspose that if all the bad people were gotten rid of we could all go and live in this happy place and so on, people aren't like that.
The systems that denied religion were decidedly dull, their architecture was dull, their eulogies to their heroes were equally dull.
I'm sure there's many many happy atheists, it's equally true of believers, if someone can show me one atheist society that was neither dictatorial, dysfunctional or oppressive, then maybe we can have an inkling of the atheist utopia.
The care home scandal is still covered up today, look it up, there's also a large problem with alcoholism, were binge drinking is the norm, and also suicide in Scandanavia.
It's a tad childish tspose that if all the bad people were gotten rid of we could all go and live in this happy place and so on, people aren't like that.
The systems that denied religion were decidedly dull, their architecture was dull, their eulogies to their heroes were equally dull.
I'm sure there's many many happy atheists, it's equally true of believers, if someone can show me one atheist society that was neither dictatorial, dysfunctional or oppressive, then maybe we can have an inkling of the atheist utopia.
The care home scandal is still covered up today, look it up, there's also a large problem with alcoholism, were binge drinking is the norm, and also suicide in Scandanavia.
@Everton - I am intrigued by this notion of yours that belief in spirituality / religion is the generator of all that is fun,and bright ,and exciting, and airy, and light in the world, - That life is a kind of whacky.zany, fun, all-action colour movie - and that if such belief was removed, the colour would leach from the screen and fade to black and white.
All the fun and joy in the world would be leached out of everyone, and this joyless zombie horde would shamble into politics, to enforce their will over others.
Rationally,do you really believe in such a scenario? Do you really believe that religion, with its stone age,tribal xenophobic foundations, its restrictive moral certitude and its finger -wagging do -goodery is the bringer of joy and light to the world? Does your spiritual / religious conviction really give you that warm, fuzzy feeling, of being superior to us poor deluded atheist saps, and that your instinctive,ingrained, faith based,non-evidenced belief somehow allows you to experience a fuller, richer version of reality? You see life in Dolby Surround Sound, 3D HiDef TruColour, us atheists are restricted to scratchy black and white silent movies, with an pipe organ wheezily providing the soundtrack? Arrant nonsense.
-ctd-
All the fun and joy in the world would be leached out of everyone, and this joyless zombie horde would shamble into politics, to enforce their will over others.
Rationally,do you really believe in such a scenario? Do you really believe that religion, with its stone age,tribal xenophobic foundations, its restrictive moral certitude and its finger -wagging do -goodery is the bringer of joy and light to the world? Does your spiritual / religious conviction really give you that warm, fuzzy feeling, of being superior to us poor deluded atheist saps, and that your instinctive,ingrained, faith based,non-evidenced belief somehow allows you to experience a fuller, richer version of reality? You see life in Dolby Surround Sound, 3D HiDef TruColour, us atheists are restricted to scratchy black and white silent movies, with an pipe organ wheezily providing the soundtrack? Arrant nonsense.
-ctd-
-ctd-
Can you point to any war that was explicitly initiated by atheists, in persuit of an explicitly atheist agenda? Let me help you out here - no, you cant. Quelle Surprise!
You mischaracterise atheists again with the comment that an atheist will "state quite clearly that there is no God and offer proof". No they dont. Atheists state quite clearly that there is almost certainly no God, and that life,the cosmons, and its creation can quite happily be explained without the need to invoke a supernatural entity. Those offering "proofs" of Gods existence are always the religious. None of these offered proofs have stood the test of time or scientific examination.
And finally, this bizarre assertion of yours that atheist societies are somehow grim, joyless places. You are biased and selective in your choice of examples, it seems to me. I cannot think of any country or society, either now or from history ,that defined itself primarily by its denial of religion / spirituality - such a stance would be a byproduct at best. Many of todays more liberal and cultured societies are defacto atheist, in that a large proportion of the population, when asked, profess a disinclination to believe - and all are thoroughly nice, normal places to live - large swathes of Scandinavia, or Japan, or Australia, or much of Northern Europe, for instance.
The joyless societies are the fundamentalist religious ones, those that do define themselves by religion.
In summary, you have it all elbow-backward, Everton :)
Can you point to any war that was explicitly initiated by atheists, in persuit of an explicitly atheist agenda? Let me help you out here - no, you cant. Quelle Surprise!
You mischaracterise atheists again with the comment that an atheist will "state quite clearly that there is no God and offer proof". No they dont. Atheists state quite clearly that there is almost certainly no God, and that life,the cosmons, and its creation can quite happily be explained without the need to invoke a supernatural entity. Those offering "proofs" of Gods existence are always the religious. None of these offered proofs have stood the test of time or scientific examination.
And finally, this bizarre assertion of yours that atheist societies are somehow grim, joyless places. You are biased and selective in your choice of examples, it seems to me. I cannot think of any country or society, either now or from history ,that defined itself primarily by its denial of religion / spirituality - such a stance would be a byproduct at best. Many of todays more liberal and cultured societies are defacto atheist, in that a large proportion of the population, when asked, profess a disinclination to believe - and all are thoroughly nice, normal places to live - large swathes of Scandinavia, or Japan, or Australia, or much of Northern Europe, for instance.
The joyless societies are the fundamentalist religious ones, those that do define themselves by religion.
In summary, you have it all elbow-backward, Everton :)
Everton, Why would it still be repressive? Yes, people could still be oppressed in other ways, as they are now, but if there were no religion, then it stands to reason that religion couldn't be suppressed.
You've said again that systems that deny religion are decidedly dull, but you're again conveniently omitting to mention that the systems you're talking about deny practically every other freedom too, so they aren't dull due simply to the repression of religion as you would have us believe - and I still don't know why you think religion brings joy and brightness to this world. Perhaps you'd like to tell me?
As for the rest of your post, I fail entirely to understand why you think atheism is responsible for all the ills of the world - and as for getting rid of bad people - what's that all about? Quite honestly, I really believe you are still failing to grasp the nature of this question. Whether that's because you are unable to, or because you refuse to, I have no idea.
You've said again that systems that deny religion are decidedly dull, but you're again conveniently omitting to mention that the systems you're talking about deny practically every other freedom too, so they aren't dull due simply to the repression of religion as you would have us believe - and I still don't know why you think religion brings joy and brightness to this world. Perhaps you'd like to tell me?
As for the rest of your post, I fail entirely to understand why you think atheism is responsible for all the ills of the world - and as for getting rid of bad people - what's that all about? Quite honestly, I really believe you are still failing to grasp the nature of this question. Whether that's because you are unable to, or because you refuse to, I have no idea.
Excellent piece LazyGun.
You are quite right about the lack of atheist defined societies. Religionists love to drag out the Stalinist Soviet Union as an example of a dull atheist society. It was indeed but not due to atheism. Moreover enforced atheism is not real atheism as many continued their religion in secret.
In 2006 nineteen percent of Australians reported "No religion" on the census with a further twelve percent either not providing an answer or one that could not be interpreted as a religion. (We are often inclined to sarcasm when discussing religion.)That covers nearly a third of us and I have no doubt these figures will have grown substantially in next year's census.
We are not a dull society. In my observation the dullest among us are the devout believers.
You are quite right about the lack of atheist defined societies. Religionists love to drag out the Stalinist Soviet Union as an example of a dull atheist society. It was indeed but not due to atheism. Moreover enforced atheism is not real atheism as many continued their religion in secret.
In 2006 nineteen percent of Australians reported "No religion" on the census with a further twelve percent either not providing an answer or one that could not be interpreted as a religion. (We are often inclined to sarcasm when discussing religion.)That covers nearly a third of us and I have no doubt these figures will have grown substantially in next year's census.
We are not a dull society. In my observation the dullest among us are the devout believers.
Going back a bit...yes, of course, Old_Geezer, philosophically you are right: you might just be someone in my dream, and so on, and so on.. cogito ergo sum and all that.
But when people make that fatuous comment that you can't prove a negative they are merely repeating a mantra without actually thinking about it. I did think about it.
That one cannot prove that God does not exist is not an argument for his/her/its existence - or, if it is, then there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, If I were to claim the latter the onus would be on me to supply evidence of it, not for others to disprove it. It is because they can produce no evidence for God that religionists try to pass the buck.
But when people make that fatuous comment that you can't prove a negative they are merely repeating a mantra without actually thinking about it. I did think about it.
That one cannot prove that God does not exist is not an argument for his/her/its existence - or, if it is, then there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, If I were to claim the latter the onus would be on me to supply evidence of it, not for others to disprove it. It is because they can produce no evidence for God that religionists try to pass the buck.
Christmas, Easter, Mardi Gras, Carnivale, Eid, Diwali etc, great fun.
Most wars are border wars, civil wars or politically ideological wars, they occaisonly wear clerical clothes.
I don't believe atheists are responsible for all the bad things on the earth, they are equally culpable, all bad people are.
The point is, I constantly see posts about getting rid of religion and how great it would be, well no, clearly it's not true.
Most wars are border wars, civil wars or politically ideological wars, they occaisonly wear clerical clothes.
I don't believe atheists are responsible for all the bad things on the earth, they are equally culpable, all bad people are.
The point is, I constantly see posts about getting rid of religion and how great it would be, well no, clearly it's not true.
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