A Baby's Human Rights

[naomi24]

Both Jews and Muslims lop bits off their young male children, not for medical reasons, but because their religions demand it, so a hypothetical question. If a case were brought before the European Court of Human Rights claiming that this practice is in violation of a human being's right to decide what happens to his body, what do you think the outcome would be?

[237SJ]

I don`t know the answer but I often think the same when I see tiny babies from (usually) the Indian sub-continent that have their ears pierced.

[daffy654]

I think the religious rights would be respected and the ECHR would be unable to change anything.

[saxy_jag]

I would hope so, but then thinking about grown men that convert to Judaism and Islam and make this choice, even if done under anaesthetic in surgical conditions, the healing process is incredibly painful as far as I'm aware.

But then again many people expect to suffer for their religion so any dedicated convertee would probably not mind the pain.

[Clanad]

While the question centers on religious traditions, the facts are (for the U.S. at least) that federal data from 1999 showed hospital circumcision rates of 81 percent in the Midwest, 66 percent in the Northeast, 64 percent in the South and 37 percent in the West of the U.S. (Source: msnbc.com).

Additionally, (Source; ibid.) "... the National Institutes of Health published a surprising report in The Lancet showing that circumcision reduced a man's risk of contracting HIV, the AIDS virus, through heterosexual sex by 51 to 60 percent compared with men who were not circumcised. The findings were based on two trials in Africa involving more than 7,500 men and were halted early because the preliminary results were so striking."

Another study , published in the journal Pediatrics in November, 2000, followed 510 New Zealand newborns until age 25 and found that circumcision cut the risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases by about half.

So, while the religious beliefs of some adherents require the operation, it can't be denied that evidence suggests, strongly, that other benefits are derived...

[naomi24]

Thanks Clanad, we've spoken about the apparent benefits or circumcision here before, but millions of men survive life without being mutilated as children, so if you don't mind I'd rather we stuck the question.

[naomi24]

*of

[sandyRoe]

I believe some Islamic states also mutilate baby girls. It's barbaric. Can't see how it might be stopped, though, even with a judgement from ECHR.

[Clanad]

Point is, naomi, any case brught up as you describe would be countered with the same statistics that would weaken any case alleged of human rights violation.

If one wuld wish to infer such raights violation for circumsicion then the other post natal care could be challenged equally since the newborn has no say in the matter... Hepatitis B at birth is probably painful, no? (Often leaves a scar as well)....

[jomifl]

^Perhaps circumcised men don't have sex as often as un-circumcused men.

[NOX]

I'm unaware of whether this applies to Muslims as well, but certianly there are a growing number of Jews who are opposed to circumcision. My ex is Jewish and we decided if we had a son ( we had daughters so it was a moot point) that they would be uncircumcised, and the male children she has since had with her new partner are uncircumcised, so hopefully this barbaric and unnecessary practice will end anyway. I would hope that the child's right to an intact body would prevail in any court case, but in honesty I just don't know.

[naomi24]

Clanad, Jews and Muslims circumcise children not in the cause of hygiene or health, but solely for religious reasons. To claim otherwise would be a lie.

[jake-the-peg]

Occasions arise where various human rights contradict.

Occasionally these are brought to courts to determine which particular rights have precidence

However human rights are there to protect the individual from the state - you cannot prosecute an individual under them. So unless a state enforced this such a case could not be brought.

Personally I think this is a shame and has lead to some anomalies - such as rights of OAPs in state nursing homes being protected but not in private ones

[keyplus90]

Yes, you are right Naomi that few people do for religious reasons. But I will just add that we do it for religious reasons before we have to get it done for medical reasons. I have only two brothers -in - law and both of them had to get it done for medical reasons within last few years. One of them just got it done on last Thursday. Two out of two means 100%. In other words religion once again worked it out before science did. For rest of its benefits I am sure you know how to google.

As for your question, we all know where this so called over stretched human rights magic is taking this country to. Of course there is another human right. A right that gives parents a right to choose what is better for their kids. My mother and father –in – law used that right and did not get their sons circumcised but now after learning in a hard way both of those sons are thinking about using their right to get their own kids sorted before it might be too late for them.

[tamborine]

Keyplus, what was the medical reason for your BILs operation ?

[keyplus90]

Tightening of the skin for one and I believe some sort of infection for the other. I did not ask more of the details.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, Rubbish! Millions of men are never circumcised and come to no harm.

You haven't answered the question which is basically would a court of law uphold religious belief against the rights of a child who is incapable of making a choice?

[Buenchico]

It's interesting that we've had a post from the USA, which is one of only two nations in the world which has refused to adopt the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. (The other is Somalia, which is effectively without a government anyway). All other countries are signatories to the Convention, which makes it clear that circumcision is in contravention of the human rights of a child:
http://www.doctorsopp...-humanrights2006.html

Chris

[naomi24]

Thank you Chris.

[tamborine]

hmmm thanx k+, only asked as my son has had some treatment he says I wouldn't understand. He wasn't circumcised as a babe but school doc said his testicles hadn't dropped at 6y. No OH to explain male probs to me.

[wildwood]

keyplus, once again you credit religion with a custom that is/was practiced by many indigenous America and Africa tribes who never had European contact until fairly recently.

It is barberic and completely unnecesarry except for medical reason.