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Why are R&S theists different from the norm?
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I have waffled on this site for many years but don’t bother any more. It seems that everything has been said many times: the reasons why religious belief is irrational; the lack of historical back-up to the Jesus story, and so on. naomi (unlike me) has studied the Koran and has had perceptive things to say about that.
But the response from the theists has never risen above the constant repetition of the same fixed, unexplained, unjustified dogma.
So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves.
And that’s the curious thing: they’re not. Away from AB R&S I correspond (yes, using envelopes and stamps, would you believe?) with many theists, professional and amateur – bishops, clergymen, religious authors, everyday believers – and with the exception of one Archbishop (who is plainly mad) all are able and willing to discuss and debate, and even concede points when they see the logic. They do not try to convert me to religion and I would not be so impertinent as to press my atheism on them.
So why this difference? Why so many reasonable theists out there when all we get on R&S are mindless bigots like ... no, I won’t name them; we all know who they are.
Any ideas anyone?
But the response from the theists has never risen above the constant repetition of the same fixed, unexplained, unjustified dogma.
So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves.
And that’s the curious thing: they’re not. Away from AB R&S I correspond (yes, using envelopes and stamps, would you believe?) with many theists, professional and amateur – bishops, clergymen, religious authors, everyday believers – and with the exception of one Archbishop (who is plainly mad) all are able and willing to discuss and debate, and even concede points when they see the logic. They do not try to convert me to religion and I would not be so impertinent as to press my atheism on them.
So why this difference? Why so many reasonable theists out there when all we get on R&S are mindless bigots like ... no, I won’t name them; we all know who they are.
Any ideas anyone?
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Naomi,
I do not think you understood what I meant and in true honesty I do not know what I really mean myself.
What I was trying to say is that Chakka35 seems to be investing a lot of their time proving that something doesn't excist. If they do not believe it is fine and dandy to me. But then if they do not believe then why spend so much time corresponding with people about the abscence of something that they do not believe in. I just do not get that.
Religion affects us all yes but so does many incidental things food can affect our body and mind. The weather again can affect our mood etc, etc.
This bit interested me the most.....
"So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves."
There are a lot of newspapers that will print a story as if it is a fact with little research or evidence and then people jump on the band wagon without questioning it.
I do not think you understood what I meant and in true honesty I do not know what I really mean myself.
What I was trying to say is that Chakka35 seems to be investing a lot of their time proving that something doesn't excist. If they do not believe it is fine and dandy to me. But then if they do not believe then why spend so much time corresponding with people about the abscence of something that they do not believe in. I just do not get that.
Religion affects us all yes but so does many incidental things food can affect our body and mind. The weather again can affect our mood etc, etc.
This bit interested me the most.....
"So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves."
There are a lot of newspapers that will print a story as if it is a fact with little research or evidence and then people jump on the band wagon without questioning it.
Gav.. If atheists were unaffected by the beliefs of religionists then that would be fine, they could all go to hell in their chosen ways. The reality is that religionists try to impose their disorted views on people who do not subscribe to their beliefs. Muslims wanting sharia law, jews wanting to declare parts of London as jewish holy ground and sikhs preventing a play from being staged and having unelected members of the clergy in the house of lords. These are examples of why atheists are so intolerant of some religions.
Add to that the church's ban on the use of condoms, resulting in the spread of HIV/Aids, and in babies being born diseased, the subjugation of women, the indoctrination of the innocent minds of children with supersitious and terrifying claptrap, and the troubles in the Middle East which are affecting practically the whole world, and you might get somewhere close to understanding why atheists who care about their fellow man and about the state of the world we all have to share take an active interest in religion.
Dear Naomi,
No I just do not see why Chakka is spending soooo much time on this.
"The reality is that religionists try to impose their disorted views on people who do not subscribe to their beliefs."
This bit I find interesting some religionists do but some do not. But could we not the same about politicians and politics. There is no exact right or wrong with politics and economics just people perception of the correct path. I was listening to someone debating the austerity (excuse my spelling) measures and they talked about helping the markets. The person on the opposite side mentioned the fact that we are trying to support the people that screwed up the economy in the first place.
No I just do not see why Chakka is spending soooo much time on this.
"The reality is that religionists try to impose their disorted views on people who do not subscribe to their beliefs."
This bit I find interesting some religionists do but some do not. But could we not the same about politicians and politics. There is no exact right or wrong with politics and economics just people perception of the correct path. I was listening to someone debating the austerity (excuse my spelling) measures and they talked about helping the markets. The person on the opposite side mentioned the fact that we are trying to support the people that screwed up the economy in the first place.
Hello Again,
You talk of the 'evils of religion' but some of the worst people in history have not been driven by religious beliefs i.e. Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot to name a few. They have all been driven by an ideology that is warped and distorted that have killed millions of people probably more than religious figures but that does not excuse the religious figures that have also killed people.
You talk of the 'evils of religion' but some of the worst people in history have not been driven by religious beliefs i.e. Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot to name a few. They have all been driven by an ideology that is warped and distorted that have killed millions of people probably more than religious figures but that does not excuse the religious figures that have also killed people.
I continue to be cofused!
Chakkra who initially posted the comment has not since made any comment.
I do find faith a fascinating subject and I have many questions. I do not have a black and white attitude to faith but get very confused by the grey areas. I do not usually comment on 'topics' as I find venting your spleen a little bit pointless. I do enjoy people that make you look at a subject from an angle you had never thought of.
Chakkra who initially posted the comment has not since made any comment.
I do find faith a fascinating subject and I have many questions. I do not have a black and white attitude to faith but get very confused by the grey areas. I do not usually comment on 'topics' as I find venting your spleen a little bit pointless. I do enjoy people that make you look at a subject from an angle you had never thought of.
Confusion is typically a symptom of the refusal to let go of unfounded and cherished beliefs in light of new evidence. Such is an effect of an inconsistent preconceived world view, the cause of which is basing ones beliefs on faith. Faith might seem like a good idea at the time of adoption but ultimately is only a stumbling block to acquiring and applying new knowledge to achieve a genuine understanding.
Gavmacp, I don't understand why you are confused. You've been given several indisputable examples of the evils of religion - and I perhaps I should add something very relevant that Birdie posted on another thread.
//The supposed existence of god profoundly affects my life and that of everyone else in this county and others. Just one example of the supposed existence of god is that it denies people with degenerative, debilitating illness and conditions, the right to die a dignified death at the time of their own choosing. The dogma of the church which says that only god can give and take away life has been enshrined in law. It's a prima facie example of faith intruding on people's private lives with no concern for their physical or mental well-being.//
Consider this. When religion carries no evidence of truth whatsoever, why should anyone be compelled to suffer as a consequence of its doctrine? It makes no sense.
//The supposed existence of god profoundly affects my life and that of everyone else in this county and others. Just one example of the supposed existence of god is that it denies people with degenerative, debilitating illness and conditions, the right to die a dignified death at the time of their own choosing. The dogma of the church which says that only god can give and take away life has been enshrined in law. It's a prima facie example of faith intruding on people's private lives with no concern for their physical or mental well-being.//
Consider this. When religion carries no evidence of truth whatsoever, why should anyone be compelled to suffer as a consequence of its doctrine? It makes no sense.
Well Hello Again,
Yes some very well reasoned arguements which I hold especially around the right to die.
Why I responded is because I feel religion is an easy target for knocking. But I take a world view. There is evil in many countries one of the worst is China. How many goods do we own that are made in China. There are many companies involved with corrupt and evil regimes. Do you research a company before making a purchase or buy a meal in a fast food restaurant. There are 27 million people still in slavery working to supply you with chocolate or other goods. There is evil in the sex trade. I cannot say I have never looked at pornography. There is even evil in supplying your simple food. Do you look at where your food is reared and how ethical that country is. I could go on.
So what is the worst evil or is there degrees of evil and the church is the worst? Or do we pick and choose what we think is evil like picking food in a supermarket.
So at Christmas will these people that talk about evil in religion will just treat it as another day, I hope so!
What scares me about people is that given certain circumstances quite reasonable people could be burning there neighbours house (which they may of lived beside quite happily for years). This has happened to many times and not just because of religion. In fact I see this on this site many times people quoting The Daily Mail as if it is the fount of knowledge. They do not try and take a balanced view but start posting as if it was a fact.
There is some research that people that have faith life longer and are healthier in body and mind. I have the book that this comes from so if pertinent will look out so I can give you the relevant papers.
Yes some very well reasoned arguements which I hold especially around the right to die.
Why I responded is because I feel religion is an easy target for knocking. But I take a world view. There is evil in many countries one of the worst is China. How many goods do we own that are made in China. There are many companies involved with corrupt and evil regimes. Do you research a company before making a purchase or buy a meal in a fast food restaurant. There are 27 million people still in slavery working to supply you with chocolate or other goods. There is evil in the sex trade. I cannot say I have never looked at pornography. There is even evil in supplying your simple food. Do you look at where your food is reared and how ethical that country is. I could go on.
So what is the worst evil or is there degrees of evil and the church is the worst? Or do we pick and choose what we think is evil like picking food in a supermarket.
So at Christmas will these people that talk about evil in religion will just treat it as another day, I hope so!
What scares me about people is that given certain circumstances quite reasonable people could be burning there neighbours house (which they may of lived beside quite happily for years). This has happened to many times and not just because of religion. In fact I see this on this site many times people quoting The Daily Mail as if it is the fount of knowledge. They do not try and take a balanced view but start posting as if it was a fact.
There is some research that people that have faith life longer and are healthier in body and mind. I have the book that this comes from so if pertinent will look out so I can give you the relevant papers.
Oh no hear he comes again,
Again confused, my favourite state of mind!
So of all the obviously tedious things I mentioned you only focus on The Christmas Day thing. But why is it so special, to me it is not. My memories of Christmas is family fights, lots of hassle and a general feeling of 'it must be better than this'. I did not have the 'Wondeful Life' christmas.
I get the pagan festival part but there is many pagan rituals that non believers could celebrate instead of christmas. Those that have not been hijacked by those bloody christains.
I love Christmas the way my friends think that buying some over priced bit of rubbish will make everything alright, in fact that they even think that buying me a present is sooooooo important. The looking forward to paying off my credit card. Eating so much I think I will burst and then thinking of the people that will go hungry that night. The superficiality of it all. The fights around the christmas table. The Queens speech!!
Again confused, my favourite state of mind!
So of all the obviously tedious things I mentioned you only focus on The Christmas Day thing. But why is it so special, to me it is not. My memories of Christmas is family fights, lots of hassle and a general feeling of 'it must be better than this'. I did not have the 'Wondeful Life' christmas.
I get the pagan festival part but there is many pagan rituals that non believers could celebrate instead of christmas. Those that have not been hijacked by those bloody christains.
I love Christmas the way my friends think that buying some over priced bit of rubbish will make everything alright, in fact that they even think that buying me a present is sooooooo important. The looking forward to paying off my credit card. Eating so much I think I will burst and then thinking of the people that will go hungry that night. The superficiality of it all. The fights around the christmas table. The Queens speech!!
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