Body & Soul3 mins ago
There are films made about it, politicians talk about it, people talk about it, - Armageddon.So just what is it?
39 Answers
It is only mentioned once in the Bible. So what exactly is Armageddon and why is it feared by some?
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"If you had a son you gave him everything he needs, all you ask if that he respect you, love and obey you. If after a while he began to mis use what you gave him, slandered you and finally destroyed your family - what would be your reaction?"
dunno, i'd be dead if all the family were destroyed woudn't i ? if not then i'd probably aim for reconciliation.
its all about forgiveness and love you see. none of this aggressive religious hatred puishment mumbo jumbo.
dunno, i'd be dead if all the family were destroyed woudn't i ? if not then i'd probably aim for reconciliation.
its all about forgiveness and love you see. none of this aggressive religious hatred puishment mumbo jumbo.
Truthabounds, I find the things that you say are deliberately to frighten people, Atheists really aren't bothered by this but your intentions are the same, I find you an intensely unpleasant person and you give religion an even worse name than it has already!!!
"Armageddon.So just what is it?" a load of old nonsense, nothing more, nothing less!
"Armageddon.So just what is it?" a load of old nonsense, nothing more, nothing less!
Naomi@ Once again you miss the point of the illustration. I asked what your reaction would be, not what you would do! Your reaction is just the same as God's. He too is greatly saddened by the outcome. He has not committed every one to eternal torment. There is no such thing! Contrary to the teachings of the churches and religions - there IS NO HELL FIRE! How many times do I have to repeat that? Hell is just the common grave of mankind and every living thing goes there. The difference is that God can and will resurrect after Armageddon.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word “resurrection” occurs more than 40 times. It is translated from a Greek word that literally means “a standing up again.” The corresponding Hebrew expression means “revival of the dead.” After a person dies, what is resurrected? It cannot be the body, which decays and returns to the dust of the ground. What is resurrected is not the same body but the same person who died. Thus, resurrection involves the restoration of the life pattern of the individual—his personality traits, his personal history, and all the details of his identity.
//No. That is an utter cop out. If you claim your God is omniscient, then he knew precisely what would happen before he created man . I’ve raised this issue with you before – but you’ve ignored it. Perhaps you will address it this time.//
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.
Also, if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the word “resurrection” occurs more than 40 times. It is translated from a Greek word that literally means “a standing up again.” The corresponding Hebrew expression means “revival of the dead.” After a person dies, what is resurrected? It cannot be the body, which decays and returns to the dust of the ground. What is resurrected is not the same body but the same person who died. Thus, resurrection involves the restoration of the life pattern of the individual—his personality traits, his personal history, and all the details of his identity.
//No. That is an utter cop out. If you claim your God is omniscient, then he knew precisely what would happen before he created man . I’ve raised this issue with you before – but you’ve ignored it. Perhaps you will address it this time.//
If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.
Also, if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men.
Truthabounds, I’ll answer your points one by one.
//I asked what your reaction would be, not what you would do!//
Read my post. I didn't tell you what I would do. I told you what my reaction would be and I told you what I WOULDN’T do.
// Your reaction is just the same as God's. He too is greatly saddened by the outcome.//
How do you know how this God feels? Has he confided in you? Do you have personal information about him that the rest of us aren’t privy to?
//He has not committed every one to eternal torment.//
I didn’t say he has. I said eternal damnation. That's where we're heading, isn't it? Damned to the grave for eternity? (Having said that, there are people who would disagree with you on the sentence to be expected for the ‘sin’ (I detest that word) of non-belief – and I would suggest they know the bible just as well as you).
//The difference is that God can and will resurrect after Armageddon.//
How do you know?
//If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) //
What do you mean ‘if’? Are you suggesting that God switched his omniscient powers off when he was drawing up his blueprint – or perhaps that he didn’t possess those powers at that time? It stands to reason that if he is all-knowing, as his followers claim, then he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what the outcome would be.
//“Let us make man.”//
The 'us' there is interesting too - but that's another story.
//These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.//
Firstly, they are not facts. Facts require proof and in this instance there is none. Not one iota. Secondly, if your God is the creator of the universe, then disorder and other vile things and anything earthly, animal, or demonic in source are all ingredients of that creation. You can’t have it both ways. Either he created the universe and everything in it – or he didn’t – so which is it?
//Also, if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men.//
Why would anything be ‘irrevocably sealed’? This is God we’re talking about. He can do anything – and we know that includes changing his mind because he’s done it. And it’s interesting that you use the word ‘ransom’ – a word usually associated with less than savoury practices. So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all? Of what possible benefit could that be to him, other than to massage his brutal and narcissistic ego?
Truthabounds, your argument, like the arguments of every other person of religion I have ever encountered, do not stand up to the slightest rational scrutiny.
//I asked what your reaction would be, not what you would do!//
Read my post. I didn't tell you what I would do. I told you what my reaction would be and I told you what I WOULDN’T do.
// Your reaction is just the same as God's. He too is greatly saddened by the outcome.//
How do you know how this God feels? Has he confided in you? Do you have personal information about him that the rest of us aren’t privy to?
//He has not committed every one to eternal torment.//
I didn’t say he has. I said eternal damnation. That's where we're heading, isn't it? Damned to the grave for eternity? (Having said that, there are people who would disagree with you on the sentence to be expected for the ‘sin’ (I detest that word) of non-belief – and I would suggest they know the bible just as well as you).
//The difference is that God can and will resurrect after Armageddon.//
How do you know?
//If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) //
What do you mean ‘if’? Are you suggesting that God switched his omniscient powers off when he was drawing up his blueprint – or perhaps that he didn’t possess those powers at that time? It stands to reason that if he is all-knowing, as his followers claim, then he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what the outcome would be.
//“Let us make man.”//
The 'us' there is interesting too - but that's another story.
//These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.//
Firstly, they are not facts. Facts require proof and in this instance there is none. Not one iota. Secondly, if your God is the creator of the universe, then disorder and other vile things and anything earthly, animal, or demonic in source are all ingredients of that creation. You can’t have it both ways. Either he created the universe and everything in it – or he didn’t – so which is it?
//Also, if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men.//
Why would anything be ‘irrevocably sealed’? This is God we’re talking about. He can do anything – and we know that includes changing his mind because he’s done it. And it’s interesting that you use the word ‘ransom’ – a word usually associated with less than savoury practices. So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all? Of what possible benefit could that be to him, other than to massage his brutal and narcissistic ego?
Truthabounds, your argument, like the arguments of every other person of religion I have ever encountered, do not stand up to the slightest rational scrutiny.
Naomi@//This is God we’re talking about. He can do anything – and we know that includes changing his mind because he’s done it//
How do you know he's changed his mind? Have you proof? Show me your evidence?
God's purpose has not changed. He still has the intention of a paradise earth where death, pain, suffering, war, famine, etc etc will be unheard of.
Whatever God has spoken to do, he has done so. He has not changed his mind.
//So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all?//
What is a ransom? The price paid for something or someone of equal value.
Adam lost perfect life for human kind. No other human can give a responding ransom as all mankind is now imperfect. The only way man can achieve perfection is through another perfect life being given - hence the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ who was born as a perfect human. To anticipation your next point - Joseph did not have intercourse with Mary until after Jesus' birth, hence Mary was a virgin and the spirit (life force) of Jesus was then placed in Mary's womb to enable him to be born perfect.
//then disorder and other vile things and anything earthly, animal, or demonic in source are all ingredients of that creation//
As all living creatures were created with free will and not made as robots - it stands to reason that they could choose which way to go. Hence evil entered into the world through Satan, who although created perfect - CHOSE to go his own way and thus became a reviler, a slander and an opposer of God. His way of doing things is the complete opposite to God. Whereas God wants people to have an enjoyable, trouble free life, Satan doesn't. Which is why at the end of Armageddon, Satan will be removed to allow man to have a taste of complete freedom from suffering etc.
//.It stands to reason that if he is all-knowing, as his followers claim, then he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what the outcome would be.//
God has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that God will never revoke.
//will resurrect after Armageddon.//
Through the example of the resurrections performed by Jesus Christ when on earth pre-figure what he will do after Armageddon, in addition to the fact the Christ himself was resurrected.
How do you know he's changed his mind? Have you proof? Show me your evidence?
God's purpose has not changed. He still has the intention of a paradise earth where death, pain, suffering, war, famine, etc etc will be unheard of.
Whatever God has spoken to do, he has done so. He has not changed his mind.
//So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all?//
What is a ransom? The price paid for something or someone of equal value.
Adam lost perfect life for human kind. No other human can give a responding ransom as all mankind is now imperfect. The only way man can achieve perfection is through another perfect life being given - hence the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ who was born as a perfect human. To anticipation your next point - Joseph did not have intercourse with Mary until after Jesus' birth, hence Mary was a virgin and the spirit (life force) of Jesus was then placed in Mary's womb to enable him to be born perfect.
//then disorder and other vile things and anything earthly, animal, or demonic in source are all ingredients of that creation//
As all living creatures were created with free will and not made as robots - it stands to reason that they could choose which way to go. Hence evil entered into the world through Satan, who although created perfect - CHOSE to go his own way and thus became a reviler, a slander and an opposer of God. His way of doing things is the complete opposite to God. Whereas God wants people to have an enjoyable, trouble free life, Satan doesn't. Which is why at the end of Armageddon, Satan will be removed to allow man to have a taste of complete freedom from suffering etc.
//.It stands to reason that if he is all-knowing, as his followers claim, then he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what the outcome would be.//
God has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that God will never revoke.
//will resurrect after Armageddon.//
Through the example of the resurrections performed by Jesus Christ when on earth pre-figure what he will do after Armageddon, in addition to the fact the Christ himself was resurrected.
Blimey truthabounds you know a lot about God, including when he chooses to use his ' powers' etc.
Why don't you go and have a lie down mate, you seem to be getting a little bit over-excited and crediting yourself with your own omnipotent powers of knowing everything you are saying is right. Well in most people's opinions it's not, it's a load of old rubbish, and no you can't tell me ( well you can because you have but it won't make it true) that ' only god can start off Armageddon' because my belief system doesn't subscribe to your God's cruelty and omnipotence, so sorry after careful deliberation I find you to be an unpleasant nutter.
Why don't you go and have a lie down mate, you seem to be getting a little bit over-excited and crediting yourself with your own omnipotent powers of knowing everything you are saying is right. Well in most people's opinions it's not, it's a load of old rubbish, and no you can't tell me ( well you can because you have but it won't make it true) that ' only god can start off Armageddon' because my belief system doesn't subscribe to your God's cruelty and omnipotence, so sorry after careful deliberation I find you to be an unpleasant nutter.
<<As all living creatures were created with free will and not made as robots - it stands to reason that they could choose which way to go. Hence evil entered into the world through Satan>>
truthabounds, after Armageddon what will stop JWs either those in heaven or those on earth from using their free will to re-introduce evil into the world? God will never interfere with their free will (I think you're telling me).
truthabounds, after Armageddon what will stop JWs either those in heaven or those on earth from using their free will to re-introduce evil into the world? God will never interfere with their free will (I think you're telling me).
To all of you who consider me to be an "unpleasant nutter", a nasty person,
an arrogant person etc. etc. How do you know I am not your neighbour, your friend, relative etc. You don't know me or where I am or where I work.
I could be sitting next to you, standing behind you at the supermarket or even talking to you on the phone. You may know me personally and think I am the nicest person you know. I could be your Drs receptionist, the guy you talk to playing golf, I could even be your mechanic!!
an arrogant person etc. etc. How do you know I am not your neighbour, your friend, relative etc. You don't know me or where I am or where I work.
I could be sitting next to you, standing behind you at the supermarket or even talking to you on the phone. You may know me personally and think I am the nicest person you know. I could be your Drs receptionist, the guy you talk to playing golf, I could even be your mechanic!!
I for one, Truthabounds, do not think you're a nasty person. I've known many convinced Christians (including JWs) and have found most of them very decent people. But if you're going to "bear witness to the truth" you must expect atheists like me to challenge you. The God of the Bible (as interpreted by JWs or any other sect) is neither loving or smart.
nd you haven't answered the question posted by someone else: how do you KNOW so much about what Jehovah wants and intends? Why aren't the Mormons, or the Sunni Muslims right?
I will answer the question for you (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong): you believe anything that the small clique running the WT organisation tell you. Truthabounds, I'm sure you're a nice person, but you're beliefs (which you did not arrive at all by yourself) are indecent. You may not like the term brain-washed, but I think it's fair comment.
nd you haven't answered the question posted by someone else: how do you KNOW so much about what Jehovah wants and intends? Why aren't the Mormons, or the Sunni Muslims right?
I will answer the question for you (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong): you believe anything that the small clique running the WT organisation tell you. Truthabounds, I'm sure you're a nice person, but you're beliefs (which you did not arrive at all by yourself) are indecent. You may not like the term brain-washed, but I think it's fair comment.
Truthabounds, I’ll say first of all that, like Vetuste. I don’t think you’re a nasty man either. I think you’re a frightened man who fervently hopes that Armageddon will descend upon this world within your own lifetime to save you from the grave. Actually, I don’t understand why you’re so afraid, because if you die before your dream is achieved, you will be oblivious for eternity, so it isn’t going to bother you. When I talk to people who worry as you do, I think of my aunt who, before undergoing major surgery, told me ‘Well, if I don’t wake up, I won’t know anything about it’. Sensible lady. (I’m happy to say she did wake up).
Right, onwards.
//How do you know he's changed his mind? Have you proof? Show me your evidence?//
Here you are.
Genesis 6.6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
He sorted it out though by drowning practically everyone on the planet. Enter plan B. (Oops …that hasn’t worked either).
//So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all?//
You haven’t answered my question. You’re just spouting unfounded belief.
//To anticipation your next point - Joseph did not have intercourse with Mary until after Jesus' birth, hence Mary was a virgin and the spirit (life force) of Jesus was then placed in Mary's womb to enable him to be born perfect.//
Well, that wasn’t going to be my next point, but if you insist. Here we have a very complex issue incorporating the building blocks (or more correctly the stumbling blocks) encountered in the construction of a new religion, which include prophecy, myth, other religions, other Gods, other virgin births – of which there were many – and so on – and it’s an issue that the Gospel writers have truly tripped themselves up on. However, without going into detail about all that, have you ever wondered why the bible gives accounts (two – and each different from the other) of Joseph’s genealogy detailing his descent through the house of David – the route indicated by ‘prophecy’ for the expected Messiah’s arrival? If Jesus had been the son of God, how is his step-father’s family history relevant to the story?
//As all living creatures were created with free will and not made as robots - it stands to reason that they could choose which way to go. Hence evil entered into the world through Satan, who although created perfect - CHOSE to go his own way …..//
Again you have evaded the issue. If God is omniscient, he knew what would happen – even if free will which he decided to endow upon his creation - was the cause of the disaster. Your God is culpable. There is no escaping that.
//Which is why at the end of Armageddon, Satan will be removed to allow man to have a taste of complete freedom from suffering etc.//
That begs the question of why God created Satan at all – and furthermore, if it was another of God’s blunders, why Satan wasn’t disposed of immediately the problem was recognised?
//God has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. //
He doesn’t? How do you know?
//To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that God will never revoke.//
Oh, is that why? Who told you?
Right, onwards.
//How do you know he's changed his mind? Have you proof? Show me your evidence?//
Here you are.
Genesis 6.6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
He sorted it out though by drowning practically everyone on the planet. Enter plan B. (Oops …that hasn’t worked either).
//So why would God demand a ransom sacrifice at all?//
You haven’t answered my question. You’re just spouting unfounded belief.
//To anticipation your next point - Joseph did not have intercourse with Mary until after Jesus' birth, hence Mary was a virgin and the spirit (life force) of Jesus was then placed in Mary's womb to enable him to be born perfect.//
Well, that wasn’t going to be my next point, but if you insist. Here we have a very complex issue incorporating the building blocks (or more correctly the stumbling blocks) encountered in the construction of a new religion, which include prophecy, myth, other religions, other Gods, other virgin births – of which there were many – and so on – and it’s an issue that the Gospel writers have truly tripped themselves up on. However, without going into detail about all that, have you ever wondered why the bible gives accounts (two – and each different from the other) of Joseph’s genealogy detailing his descent through the house of David – the route indicated by ‘prophecy’ for the expected Messiah’s arrival? If Jesus had been the son of God, how is his step-father’s family history relevant to the story?
//As all living creatures were created with free will and not made as robots - it stands to reason that they could choose which way to go. Hence evil entered into the world through Satan, who although created perfect - CHOSE to go his own way …..//
Again you have evaded the issue. If God is omniscient, he knew what would happen – even if free will which he decided to endow upon his creation - was the cause of the disaster. Your God is culpable. There is no escaping that.
//Which is why at the end of Armageddon, Satan will be removed to allow man to have a taste of complete freedom from suffering etc.//
That begs the question of why God created Satan at all – and furthermore, if it was another of God’s blunders, why Satan wasn’t disposed of immediately the problem was recognised?
//God has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. //
He doesn’t? How do you know?
//To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that God will never revoke.//
Oh, is that why? Who told you?
End of the world has been prophesied many times at least twice last year so far as I know once this year. Jesus was going to come back in a millennium??
The world is not as God wanted it? Why not? All seeing is he not? He can kill hundreds of thousands in earthquakes/tsunami etc so is Armageddon just being done in stages.
No God No Armageddon just gullible idiots
The world is not as God wanted it? Why not? All seeing is he not? He can kill hundreds of thousands in earthquakes/tsunami etc so is Armageddon just being done in stages.
No God No Armageddon just gullible idiots
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