Does fate exist?

[cazzz1975]

Is life pre planned or does free will shape our lives? why do some inexplicable situations occur that appear to lend themselves to fate or are they really just a bizarre co-incidence?

[237SJ]

I`m not sure Ron but I think that theory is getting into the realms of predicting one`s future which is frowned upon by the church.

[Old_Geezer]

It is neither pre-planned, nor is free will likely IMO. It is all just inevitable.

[craft1948]

When the daughter was very little we'd somehow got into explaining death to her. She then told her grandad that he'd die when he was 85..........he did.

[joko]

i think things just happen.

think about some of the crazy or sickening things that happen - do you suppose some god has sat down and planned it all out when your are born?
-
age 12 - run down by a car
age 16 - abused by a neighbour
age 23 - maimed by a falling tree
age 55 - lose all family in a tsunami

etc etc - who would actually plan all that stuff?

stuff just happens

[mibn2cweus]

Fate is the inevitable unavoidable consequence of a failure to realise an alternative before it's too late. The past is determined by what had not been predetermined otherwise in advance.

We are for the most part, automatons, programmed to act and react based on what we believe. It is in questioning and validating our beliefs, establishing the correlation between our beliefs and the reality to which they pertain and are subject that we acquire the potential to update and revise our programming thereby empowering us to take control of our fate and determine our own preferred and chosen destiny. It is your understanding of reality and what is possible within it that provides you with knowledge of the alternatives available to you and which to choose that liberates you from the prison of fate.

[cazzz1975]

Number two is unlikely. No one can have true free will if their fate has already been determined.

they may not realise that their 'free will' could be actually pre determined. I dont know where god came from, I dont count religion in this.

[jake-the-peg]

The Scientific perspective is interesting

If you'd asked scientists 150 years ago I think most would have said that yes probably it is. That the laws of physics sent atoms bumping around the place like billiard balls and the laws of physics meant only one possible outcome could happen.

Since then Poincarre set in motion chaos theory which showed that actually randomness is an inevitable outcome in almost everything.

So no there is no such thing as fate.

Is there such a thing as freewill? that's a lot harder!

We are conditioned so strongly, for example my personality makes me interested in issues like this and also tends to make me outspoken - so the liklihood that I'll reply to this thread is high.

Whether I do depends on outside influences like free time, the length of the thread, the last time someone else contributed etc. But am I actually making a decision to reply?

I don't know but my feeling is yes there is free will but we use it very, very rarely 99.99% of the time we are on autopilot respondind to outside stimulous based on our prejudices and personalities

[cathfromsaron]

coincidences and chance exist certainly! but you usually reap what you sow!

pre-destination and free will are not mutually exclusive ... i have been 'accidentally' at the right place at the right time to get 'opportunities' ... and it was my choice to accept or reject these chances!

cath x

[jomifl]

Jake has a valid point, a lot of the decisions we make are based on mental state which is determined by instinct, experience and hormone levels, social conditioning and alcolhol levels in the blood. Not much intellectual free will comes into these decisions and if we thought about the long term consequences of a lot of our actions we would decide to give that drunken brawl or one night stand a miss. But we don't.

[jake-the-peg]

Do you think so Cath?

Do you not think there's a chance that your personality and circumstnces meant that when presented with those conditions you would always have made that decision?

The idea of free will is very strong - it underpins our moral philosophy and sense of self.

That's why it's so difficult for people to accept the idea that it's mostly a fiction

[ludwig]

Sorry jake but I think that's nonsense. We're not billiard balls or sub-atomic particles bouncing around in response to the laws of physics.
I made a conscious decision to say this. I didn't have to.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – Suffering of millions make us forget enjoyment of billions. At any given time majority of people have always been happy or not what we call suffering. If you talk about starving babies in Africa then why don’t you look at obese in USA for example? Why don’t you see the waste food in our bins that could have helped those starving? It’s is not warped mind that created it, its people who are greedy. My God told me that I would be questioned if I slept with full tummy where my neighbour was hungry. Now if I don’t think about it then whose fault it is? As for pain and suffering, what would you call a blood test (as many fear needles), or an operation to save someone’s life? After all it is painful and has fear of its own. Why go through that? The simple reason is for the benefit of what comes after and most of the time is longer lasting. Same way few people go through suffering for what will come after. They will benefit due to their suffering here but what about the ones that did not suffer same way and did not care about the suffering of the others? After all it might not be in the hands of the sufferer, but it was in the hands of the one who was enjoying that he/she could have helped but did not.

As for the main question, I have no doubt that most of the things are pre-decided but few are in our hands. Once someone explained it as you imagine a horse tied to a peg wit say 50 meter rope. Now within that 50 m radius is the free will whether the horse stays at 10mt, 40mt or goes all the way to 50mt. But what happens outside 50mtr is his fate and is out of his control.

[keyplus90]

Vivandorron ////If live is pre-planned what is the purpose of religion.? Would it not become the case that a supposed God has already decided our fate; whether or not we are believers.?////

It is a very well-known argument of atheists. But the question is Do you know what God knows? Do you know that at some stage you would or would not change your mind? No you don’t therefore you can’t say what your fate is. Or you might say that why should you help someone? But someone else would come and help that person. Now that was known to God that who would help and who would ignore. So why did you not take the opportunity? You know that one day you would die. So why do you take medicine? Did God ask you to take medicine? No, you used your senses and decide. Same way God has given you opportunity to look around and make your mind up.

[WyeDyed]

I don't believe in fate. I do, however, believe in cause and effect.
We make decisions every day of our lives based on the circumstances around us; some made by our own hands, some imposed upon us from outside our control.
Our innate need to search for (and find) patterns in the world around us fills in the blanks.
If there were fate it would remove any moral responsibility from us, as I could simply say "It's not my fault, it was fate, therefore I should not be punished"

[mibn2cweus]

Everything happens for a reason. Our only choice in the matter is to make it a good one.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Do you know what God knows?//

No, but you think you do.

//God has given you opportunity to look around and make your mind up.//

[jomifl]

There is an element of truth in Keyplus's analogy of the tethered horse. We have freedom of choice but it is limited by the conditions mentioned earlier and not the least by our intellect and imagination.

[naomi24]

Jom, I was going to mention that - but then I thought 'let's not go there'. ;o)