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Proof/Disproof of God
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I listened this week to an excellent talk by a Baptist Minister
This talk which lasted about an hour was largely based on the impossibility of the universe just occurring spontaneously . He quoted examples from many learned mathematicians and scientists to prove his point.
His punch line being that therefore it had to be a created by God.
However I pointed out to him that he had also simultaneously disproved God because if the universe can not occur spontaneously neither can God.
This talk which lasted about an hour was largely based on the impossibility of the universe just occurring spontaneously . He quoted examples from many learned mathematicians and scientists to prove his point.
His punch line being that therefore it had to be a created by God.
However I pointed out to him that he had also simultaneously disproved God because if the universe can not occur spontaneously neither can God.
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Maths and science are products of the universe, the universe is not a product of science and mathematics, not exactly a revelation.
There are many, many things that mathematicians and scientists do not know and, in my opinion, there are some things that we can never know, so to spout what we do know to then fill in the gaps with 'God' is simply what humans have been doing since the dawn of time, again not exactly a revelation.
Interesting that you go to those talks though, and good that you got the point across, it's funny how they think that the existence of a God that we cannot see is more likely than everything we see around us.
There are many, many things that mathematicians and scientists do not know and, in my opinion, there are some things that we can never know, so to spout what we do know to then fill in the gaps with 'God' is simply what humans have been doing since the dawn of time, again not exactly a revelation.
Interesting that you go to those talks though, and good that you got the point across, it's funny how they think that the existence of a God that we cannot see is more likely than everything we see around us.
Usually they argue that God has always existed and always will and so needs no explanation or origin. It is the universal get out for religiously based cosmologies.
Their mathematics really don't comes to terms with the vast numbers of planets in the Universe. No matter how low a probability it is going to happen at least once and that is all we need to explain why a universe that supports life actually exists.
Their mathematics really don't comes to terms with the vast numbers of planets in the Universe. No matter how low a probability it is going to happen at least once and that is all we need to explain why a universe that supports life actually exists.
He also made a point that every effect has to have a cause.
However there doesn't have to be just one cause . To achieve an effect may require several causes. In which case even if we accept their supernatural concept there could be multiple deities not just one. As was believed by most ancient religions and still is by the Hindus. Of course that would still require an explanation of where they came from.
However there doesn't have to be just one cause . To achieve an effect may require several causes. In which case even if we accept their supernatural concept there could be multiple deities not just one. As was believed by most ancient religions and still is by the Hindus. Of course that would still require an explanation of where they came from.
ll-bil #Interesting that you go to those talks though, and good that you got the point across,#
Yes I'm surprised myself but he knocked on my door and that's the first time any cleric has done that in the fifty years I've lived here. They normally only preach to the believers but he's new and has a missionary zeal. I think he sees me as a challenge and it makes him look to his own beliefs. I in turn read the bible , which I haven't done for decades, so that I can challenge what he and the other local vicars have to say.
A month ago we had 4 vicars in our community hall not to give a talk but purely to answer any questions we threw at them. It was a bit like Answer Bank. I was surprised how many people turned up. Quite entertaining .
Yes I'm surprised myself but he knocked on my door and that's the first time any cleric has done that in the fifty years I've lived here. They normally only preach to the believers but he's new and has a missionary zeal. I think he sees me as a challenge and it makes him look to his own beliefs. I in turn read the bible , which I haven't done for decades, so that I can challenge what he and the other local vicars have to say.
A month ago we had 4 vicars in our community hall not to give a talk but purely to answer any questions we threw at them. It was a bit like Answer Bank. I was surprised how many people turned up. Quite entertaining .
Wow, that is certainly a turn up for the books! Sounds like an interesting scenario, I have had a couple of JWs make me a project before now and ultimately nobody is going to change anyone's beliefs or lack of so it generally peters out, good fun while it lasts though.
I think (and feel a little bad about it it) that true believers are actually missing something in the brain department so I cannot take much of what they say about religion seriously so tend not to talk about it in the interests of getting along nicely.
Actually I used to live next door to a black Gospel Minister, a great bloke with a lovely family, he used to call me round to sort out his laptop which kept going wrong and helped him to print some of his newsletters etc. off. I used to say to him, that it was funny how he preaches that God can fix all of the worlds problems but he needed Billy to fix his laptop! I used to get away with it though and he made great coffee.
I think (and feel a little bad about it it) that true believers are actually missing something in the brain department so I cannot take much of what they say about religion seriously so tend not to talk about it in the interests of getting along nicely.
Actually I used to live next door to a black Gospel Minister, a great bloke with a lovely family, he used to call me round to sort out his laptop which kept going wrong and helped him to print some of his newsletters etc. off. I used to say to him, that it was funny how he preaches that God can fix all of the worlds problems but he needed Billy to fix his laptop! I used to get away with it though and he made great coffee.
He pointed out that every event had to have a cause?
Well he can't have spoken to many physicists dealing with Quantum Mechanics!
This "proof" of God goes back to at least the time of Thomas Aquinas and to be fair at that time it was a good argument - better than a lot of his other ones that's for sure!
QM rather overturned this with events happening truely randomly, there were other random features known before this time but they weren't quite so obvious and in your face.
It was this that really upset Einstein (not that he was religious in the normal way) with his famous dice comment.
Well he was wrong and so is your Baptist minister
or perhaps it's turtles all the way down!
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Well he can't have spoken to many physicists dealing with Quantum Mechanics!
This "proof" of God goes back to at least the time of Thomas Aquinas and to be fair at that time it was a good argument - better than a lot of his other ones that's for sure!
QM rather overturned this with events happening truely randomly, there were other random features known before this time but they weren't quite so obvious and in your face.
It was this that really upset Einstein (not that he was religious in the normal way) with his famous dice comment.
Well he was wrong and so is your Baptist minister
or perhaps it's turtles all the way down!
http://
It's a fair indication of how narrow the religion mind is that it keep tryings to apply laws appertaining to our lives on this tiny speck of dust to the awful inscrutability of the universe. Who said that everything must have a cause? Here, maybe - but 13,000,000,000 ago when something far beyond our comprehension happened?
And, as has been said before (ad nauseam by me!), if a creator was the cause then the creator must have been created and the creator's creator must have been created... and so infinitely on. But, as beso says, they wriggle out of that by claiming that their rule applies only once - to form the first creator - then is abandoned.
And, as has been said before (ad nauseam by me!), if a creator was the cause then the creator must have been created and the creator's creator must have been created... and so infinitely on. But, as beso says, they wriggle out of that by claiming that their rule applies only once - to form the first creator - then is abandoned.
Do I know that?
Well it depends what you mean by "know"
Everything in Science is open to being overturned
But QM has been the most sucessful theory in the history of Physics
-It has made predictions that have been bourne out to the highest degree of accuracy of any theory ever proposed
- It has been pitted against relativity and it has won
Do I know it for certain? no because that is faith
It's know at least as well as laws of celecstial mechanics so I guess I know it as well as I know the sun will rise tomorrow
Well it depends what you mean by "know"
Everything in Science is open to being overturned
But QM has been the most sucessful theory in the history of Physics
-It has made predictions that have been bourne out to the highest degree of accuracy of any theory ever proposed
- It has been pitted against relativity and it has won
Do I know it for certain? no because that is faith
It's know at least as well as laws of celecstial mechanics so I guess I know it as well as I know the sun will rise tomorrow
I've just had an email from the Baptist Minister accepting my argument that if the universe could not have been created out of nothing then neither could God have been but he said :
# There was a first, uncaused cause. # and that was God.
My answer was if there has to be a first, that first could be the universe itself.
Not a fictitious entity called God. God is just a scapegoat.
# There was a first, uncaused cause. # and that was God.
My answer was if there has to be a first, that first could be the universe itself.
Not a fictitious entity called God. God is just a scapegoat.
He lost me on impossibility.
Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable.
To me, the difference between science and faith is adaptability. Scientists are willing to be proved wrong. The faithful just believe.
I have no disproof of god. I have no proof either.
I have a belief (not faith) in certain scientific principles, but the belief I have is based on extensive experimentation and peer review. I am happy, almost excited to have those beliefs challenged, but I want evidence to back it up.
Your friendly preacher could never provide me with that evidence re the existence of god.
Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable.
To me, the difference between science and faith is adaptability. Scientists are willing to be proved wrong. The faithful just believe.
I have no disproof of god. I have no proof either.
I have a belief (not faith) in certain scientific principles, but the belief I have is based on extensive experimentation and peer review. I am happy, almost excited to have those beliefs challenged, but I want evidence to back it up.
Your friendly preacher could never provide me with that evidence re the existence of god.
I might suspect all sorts of things
Do you have any reason to think that?
Compared to the thousands of physicists who have studied and worked in this field over the last half century you're in a notedly small minority.
But I sympathise - Einstein felt the same way, hell I felt the same when I first started learning QM - it's 19th century science, the desperate need to hang on to the idea that you could inuitively understand the Universe based on the observations of your everyday life.
My first teacher in the subject told me that a lot of the ideas wouldn't make sense - sorry about that - but it's the way the Universe works and there's no point in trying to makethe Universe work the way you think it sould - 'cause it aint listening!
And if you stop and think about it, isn't it improbable?
The idea that the rules that you've come to instinctively appreciate in the very restricted range of temperatures, forces, masses and scales should apply to everything in the entire Universe?
Is it really likely that the very moment of creation works just the same as driving to the shops?
Sorry you may not like the underlying randomness - but the Universe aint listening!
God really does play dice! - in fact the Universe is one big game of Yahtzee
Do you have any reason to think that?
Compared to the thousands of physicists who have studied and worked in this field over the last half century you're in a notedly small minority.
But I sympathise - Einstein felt the same way, hell I felt the same when I first started learning QM - it's 19th century science, the desperate need to hang on to the idea that you could inuitively understand the Universe based on the observations of your everyday life.
My first teacher in the subject told me that a lot of the ideas wouldn't make sense - sorry about that - but it's the way the Universe works and there's no point in trying to makethe Universe work the way you think it sould - 'cause it aint listening!
And if you stop and think about it, isn't it improbable?
The idea that the rules that you've come to instinctively appreciate in the very restricted range of temperatures, forces, masses and scales should apply to everything in the entire Universe?
Is it really likely that the very moment of creation works just the same as driving to the shops?
Sorry you may not like the underlying randomness - but the Universe aint listening!
God really does play dice! - in fact the Universe is one big game of Yahtzee
Jake, that’s a bit of an unnecessarily patronising post, but let’s get it straight. I have never said that the universe doesn’t behave randomly – simply that some of that assumed 'randomness' – like particles popping in and out of existence – might actually have a cause. If Einstein felt the same way, then I consider myself to be in good company – but then I don’t claim to know how it all works. I just know that science doesn’t know it all either.
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