ChatterBank4 mins ago
Creationism ... American Loonies
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Creationism thing on BBC Three at the mo ...
Americans are such a bunch of scary loonies.
Americans are such a bunch of scary loonies.
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LB ... yes, but the real cranks were the two American guys ...
The tall guy with the crew cut, who said the dinosaurs and whales were all on the Ark, and God was okay with incest but then changed his mind, and the big, coloured guy, who said that science (!) was just hypotheses, unsupported by any evidence.
The tall guy with the crew cut, who said the dinosaurs and whales were all on the Ark, and God was okay with incest but then changed his mind, and the big, coloured guy, who said that science (!) was just hypotheses, unsupported by any evidence.
I haven't seen the programme but I do think many here are just indulging in insulting Americans. These believers may well be nice folk, they are merely mistaken IMO in accepting the beliefs passed on to them by their mistaken parents, during their childhood.
But as an example of what the human species can accept, a belief in creation is enlightening. That said there are many examples throughout history where actions have been justified because of some strange belief; we know this is the case with humans; regardless of nationality or race. No one is immune, we are all the products of our genes and experiences.
But as an example of what the human species can accept, a belief in creation is enlightening. That said there are many examples throughout history where actions have been justified because of some strange belief; we know this is the case with humans; regardless of nationality or race. No one is immune, we are all the products of our genes and experiences.
So how do you know they're wrong?
I'm assuming you're not a geologist or palentologist and that you like most of us have gained your knowledge by listening to authorities like Teachers and TV presenters.
Well so have they - just different teachers and TV presenters, ones who have a point of reference that places their religion as more authorative than human experts.
It's a question of who you believe
OK that's a slightly disingenuous answer but my point is that you have to understand that for many of them their point of view is completely rational - they don't accept your authorities any more than you accept theirs and their point of view confirms their belief and so must be right.
It's a philosophy essentially unchanged since medieval times.
You have to dig deeper and ask what we mean by correct in terms of people's view - effectively we would now say post scientific rationalism that it must be testable - they would probably point to cases of scientific fraud or error and say you can't be certain and it all goes round in a big circle.
I'm assuming you're not a geologist or palentologist and that you like most of us have gained your knowledge by listening to authorities like Teachers and TV presenters.
Well so have they - just different teachers and TV presenters, ones who have a point of reference that places their religion as more authorative than human experts.
It's a question of who you believe
OK that's a slightly disingenuous answer but my point is that you have to understand that for many of them their point of view is completely rational - they don't accept your authorities any more than you accept theirs and their point of view confirms their belief and so must be right.
It's a philosophy essentially unchanged since medieval times.
You have to dig deeper and ask what we mean by correct in terms of people's view - effectively we would now say post scientific rationalism that it must be testable - they would probably point to cases of scientific fraud or error and say you can't be certain and it all goes round in a big circle.
@OG - I am not insulting americans. I am insulting creationists, wherever they come from.
Given that every culture I am aware of has evolved its own creation fable - how is it enlightening that we see examples of people, in this day and age, clinging to such fable and rejecting all the evidence that disproves the myth? What else would such people be willing to reject or overlook as a consequence of their belief?
What irritates me is not that people believe in fairytales - it is the passing on of such beliefs as empirical truths to the next generation. It is the formation of schools in the UK that make belief a core value, schools that wish to offer creationism as a valid scientific theory on a par with, say, evolution that irritates me.
Given that every culture I am aware of has evolved its own creation fable - how is it enlightening that we see examples of people, in this day and age, clinging to such fable and rejecting all the evidence that disproves the myth? What else would such people be willing to reject or overlook as a consequence of their belief?
What irritates me is not that people believe in fairytales - it is the passing on of such beliefs as empirical truths to the next generation. It is the formation of schools in the UK that make belief a core value, schools that wish to offer creationism as a valid scientific theory on a par with, say, evolution that irritates me.
How many schools do you know do that?
The National Curriculum for England requires that students at Key Stage 4 be taught that the fossil record is evidence for evolution, and how variation and selection may lead to evolution or to extinction. The religious education syllabus does not involve teaching creationism, but teaching the central tenets of major world faiths.
My own experience of attending an RC school was very much the way of science and evolution over creationism. Of course we learnt about creationism amongst other things in RE, but they were never taught on par.
The National Curriculum for England requires that students at Key Stage 4 be taught that the fossil record is evidence for evolution, and how variation and selection may lead to evolution or to extinction. The religious education syllabus does not involve teaching creationism, but teaching the central tenets of major world faiths.
My own experience of attending an RC school was very much the way of science and evolution over creationism. Of course we learnt about creationism amongst other things in RE, but they were never taught on par.
@Octavius
Under the new regime and the formation of free schools, there are several groups and organisations of faith that have a belief in creationism.The Grindon Hall group spring to mind. These schools may say that they will adhere to the national curriculum but if you have creationism as part of your core values, that attitude is likely to be communicated during the teaching process.
There is evidence to suggest that some existing schools with a strong faith policy would like to teach creationism or ID within their scientific curriculum. Bluecoats school, Liverpool wanted to introduce ID into science lessons, as I recall. Then there was a muslim academy in Birmingham, whose biology teacher taught the pupils the curriculum, but then undermined that teaching by intimating that this is what the pupils needed to know to pass the exam, but the reality was the creation myth.
I will continue to view creationists with derision.
Under the new regime and the formation of free schools, there are several groups and organisations of faith that have a belief in creationism.The Grindon Hall group spring to mind. These schools may say that they will adhere to the national curriculum but if you have creationism as part of your core values, that attitude is likely to be communicated during the teaching process.
There is evidence to suggest that some existing schools with a strong faith policy would like to teach creationism or ID within their scientific curriculum. Bluecoats school, Liverpool wanted to introduce ID into science lessons, as I recall. Then there was a muslim academy in Birmingham, whose biology teacher taught the pupils the curriculum, but then undermined that teaching by intimating that this is what the pupils needed to know to pass the exam, but the reality was the creation myth.
I will continue to view creationists with derision.
Grindon Hall says the following: "We do not share the rigid creationist’s insistence on a literalistic interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis … We are therefore very happy to believe that God could have created the world in six days. But we do not feel that it is helpful to affirm it as an unarguable fact."
None of these free schools will be allowed to teach "scientific" creationism.
None of these free schools will be allowed to teach "scientific" creationism.
@Octavius.
These are some quotations from Grindon Halls creation policy - A policy still in force,as far as I am aware.
"We will teach evolution as an established scientific principle, as far as it goes.
We will teach creation as a scientific theory and we will always affirm very clearly our position as Christians, i.e. that Christians believe that God’s creation of the world is not just a theory but a fact with eternal consequences for our planet and for every person who has ever lived on it.
We will affirm that to believe in God’s creation of the world is an entirely respectable position scientifically and rationally."
"However, we vigorously challenge the unscientific certainty often claimed by scientists surrounding the so-called “Big Bang” and origins generally.
We believe that no scientific theory provides – or ever will provide – a satisfactory explanation of origins, i.e. why the world appeared, and how nothing became something in the first place."
"We will affirm the fact that “God created the world and everything in it”. We will affirm that he did so “ex nihilo” – out of nothing.
We believe that God, as sovereign Lord of the universe, is capable of creating the world in a few 24-hour days, or over a period of millions of years"
Regardless of what they give lip service to - these are their core beliefs. These are the beliefs they will be communicating to children, overtly or covertly, in scientific lessons.
Holding such beliefs is incompatible with an education offering critical thinking, rational analysis and a firm scientific grounding. You may be relaxed about it - I am not.
These are some quotations from Grindon Halls creation policy - A policy still in force,as far as I am aware.
"We will teach evolution as an established scientific principle, as far as it goes.
We will teach creation as a scientific theory and we will always affirm very clearly our position as Christians, i.e. that Christians believe that God’s creation of the world is not just a theory but a fact with eternal consequences for our planet and for every person who has ever lived on it.
We will affirm that to believe in God’s creation of the world is an entirely respectable position scientifically and rationally."
"However, we vigorously challenge the unscientific certainty often claimed by scientists surrounding the so-called “Big Bang” and origins generally.
We believe that no scientific theory provides – or ever will provide – a satisfactory explanation of origins, i.e. why the world appeared, and how nothing became something in the first place."
"We will affirm the fact that “God created the world and everything in it”. We will affirm that he did so “ex nihilo” – out of nothing.
We believe that God, as sovereign Lord of the universe, is capable of creating the world in a few 24-hour days, or over a period of millions of years"
Regardless of what they give lip service to - these are their core beliefs. These are the beliefs they will be communicating to children, overtly or covertly, in scientific lessons.
Holding such beliefs is incompatible with an education offering critical thinking, rational analysis and a firm scientific grounding. You may be relaxed about it - I am not.
"Now, this is what we are required to teach you about evolution in science classes, and you have to learn this in order to pass your exams. However, here in RE, we are able to tell you the truth. In fact, evolution is just a theory made up by atheists and if you believe it, you may end up going to hell. The real truth is that God created the world and everything on it."
Hyperbole?
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1082
Hyperbole?
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/1082
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