Can the dead talk to us?

[naomi24]

Something a bit different to talk about. Last night's offering from 4thought TV.

The presenter mentions controlled experiments that suggest it is a reality – personally I don’t know of any experiments that are verified - but he also says he seems to have a faculty of mind that takes his awareness beyond his physical five senses to become aware of things that others simply cannot be aware of. Is that possible?

http://www.4thought.t...dy-byng?autoplay=true

[LazyGun]

@khandro

Sorry, but are making no sense at all - well, none I can see anyway. What point do you think your story about scurvy makes?

Your earlier post seemed to suggest that stuff like communication between human and animals just happened, and required no explanation beyond the fact that it happened. You appeared to be suggesting something similar with the Scurvy tale , but for the life of me I fail to see the point you are making.

James Lind used the scientific method to examine and quantify some of the 'common knowledge" remedies that people had known about for nearly 2 centuries. His groundbreaking work in performing a proper controlled trial showed the fresh limes and lemons worked, other remedies didnt.

How is this anything other than an illustration of the power and usefulness of the scientific method in illuminating ignorance and fable?

[naomi24]

//@khandro

Sorry, but are making no sense at all - well, none I can see anyway. What point do you think your story about scurvy makes?//

^^ I agree.

[modeller]

jmfl #Nobody seems to get a detailed intellectual message such as 'nip down to Tesco as turkies are on offer' or 'no need to leave home yet as the 156b bus is running 10 minutes late'. #

That wouldn't be telepathy which requires at least two people and in real time.
What you have quoted is none of those.

#conveyed by tone of voice, pheromones, body language #
None of these are relevant when the people are far apart sometimes hundreds or more miles.

.

birdie #This does not mean that your mother was telepathic with animals I'm afraid.#
I never thought it was . I just wondered whether some telepathic people possess a high level of empathy. Which, as some claim, is another form of communication. I haven't met any other telepaths so I can't compare.
I don't think my mother had a high level of empathy with humans but it was almost miraculous with animals .

[Khandro]

LG; I find it odd that you cannot understand the connection; animals and (some) humans can communicate in an extra-sensory manner, this is to me irrefutable, we may not know how, but there is plenty of evidence to show that this happens, just as it was known (by some) that an intake of limes would prevent scurvy without knowing how or why it happens. Lind may have got the honour of 'proving' it, and commending its use by the navy but its discovery was not his, and he did not discover the real cause - vitamin C - which came much later. What these two facts have in common is that they work(ed) without understanding why. Understanding why may add validation, but it doesn't increase their reality.

[naomi24]

LG, //I just think that when people make claims of the paranormal or supernatural that they ensure to the best of their ability that the events occurred as claimed and that their memory is not playing tricks on them //

I agree – and I think the vast majority of such claims are attributable to the mind playing tricks – or to faulty plumbing. People imagine they see and hear a lot of things in the dark.

//And it should also be recognised that anomalies do not overthrow the existing current knowledge,//

I do recognise that – although in this instance there is no current knowledge to overthrow.

[naomi24]

I still don’t get Khandro’s correlation between scurvy and limes and telepathy, but I too think some people have a certain ability that others do not.

[LazyGun]

@Khandro - You continue to assert telepathy between humans and animals. You offer nothing to support that assertion, except anecdote. I think the human-animal bond, or the animal-animal or human-human bond come to that is governed by a complex, unconscious sensory signal interchange comprising our complete suite of senses, coupled with biochemical and neurological status changes that will occur depending on that sensory input.

Since the actual, verified evidence of extrasensory ability is absent, I fail to see why you continue to posit telepathy as an answer.

And we still do not seem to be communicating well with respect to scurvy. For you, the whole story of the problem of scurvy, the various efforts to treat it with a variety of remedies based on anecdote, virtually all of which were unsuccessful, and then the work by James Lind-some 150 years after Scurvy had first been categorised - of examining these anecdotal remedies objectively and using controls, to find out which ones of them actually worked is somehow some evidence of the triumph of non-science?

What it shows, quite graphically, is the triumph of employing the scientific method-observation, hypothesis, controlled trials, data collection and analysis, and confirmation or amendation or rejection of the initial hypothesis- over just accepting paranormal or spiritual or anecdotal evidence as being true just because some wise person says so, or because someone got a message from god!

[Khandro]

LG; It's taken 127 posts and you finally managed to bring God into it :-)
But, you have no evidence for your above hypothesis at all, whereas I at least have plenty of evidence; first hand and anecdotal for mine, and what is your //unconscious sensory signal interchange// if it isn't extra-sensory?

[naomi24]

Jake brought God into it on page 3.

[jomifl]

Khandro..//what is your //unconscious sensory signal interchange// if it isn't extra-sensory//.... try this , extra sensory means 'outside the realm of normal senses' What LG is suggesting is that the communication is carried out by known mechanisms but not necessarily at a concious or intellectual level.
If you could take the time to present your evidence for telepathy and your c.v. in the field of animal communication, particularly within groups of vertebrates.... I will be astonished. As for hubris please explain how as a dilettante you have a greater understanding of animal communication than people who have devoted there lives to the subject and may even have carried out the occasional experiment. If you decide to stop digging we will understand.

[Khandro]

There is no firm agreement among neurologists as to the number of senses because of differing definitions of what constitutes a sense. Humans are considered to have at least five additional senses that include: nociception (pain); equilibrioception (balance); proprioception and kinaesthesia (joint motion and acceleration); sense of time; thermoception (temperature differences); and possibly an additional weak magnetoception(direction), and six more if interoceptive senses are also considered.
And furthermore; why does my miniature poodle Piero, know exactly when it is 8:45pm each evening wherever we are (and I mean exactly)?

[LazyGun]

@Khandro - Precisely. No need to posit extrasensory perception which has no validated evidence in its favour when we have our own rich sensorium, much of which operates without our conscious intervention or awareness.

You still have not explained what point you were attempting to make with the whole scurvy thing.

No idea how your dog knows its 8:45 pm. We only have your word for it, for a start, and to be honest given your track record of rejecting science in favour of your own particular favourite woo, I wouldn't necessarily believe you if you told me the sky was blue unless there was some independent validation ;)

What happens at 8:45pm?

[jomifl]

Does your dog know when the clocks change?

[jomifl]

Khandro, I always know exactly what time it is, plus or minus a couple of hours. Presumably your poodle is a little more precise, but how much precisely?

[naomi24]

My, how this discussion moves on – but what a welcome relief from the doom and gloom of Jehovah’s Witnesses! Quite honestly, chaps, one of my dogs - the one previously mentioned and the bounciest of the three - appears to know the time of day. He waits at the door when my husband is due home – and he still waits at the door at the regular time when my husband is going to be late or is abroad on business – hence he often has a long wait. Having said that, the dog does appear to know when visitors are about to arrive – he takes up his position at the door – something he doesn’t do when no one is expected – but are we talking about animal instinct or human instinct – or both?

Well, whatever. Good discussion.

[Zacs-Master]

Dogs pick up on the slightest movement, breathing, posture and probably smell which to them are all indicators of behaviour. We probably had these 'senses' when we were evolving but they have been diminished by so called evolution.

[starone]

In my opinion the answer is definitely not. However, I would add, it would be nice if they could. But that won't happen because when you are dead your body is gathered back into the earth and that is that. Nothing left. Not a very nice prospect but there it is.

[Khandro]

Cor blimey!...I use the term EXTRA sensory meaning perception via something other than the five recognised senses. Next; Piero demands a walk at 8:45pm and believe it or not he allowed for the change of time last weekend - maybe he can tell the time, and tomorrow I shall turn the clock to the wall - watch this space! Next jomifl, your two hour margin is sloppy even for a human, Piero has it down to about 3 minutes each way (which may accommodate error on my part) and shows a marked intelligence even over you. LG; I don't reject science at all, just mediocre scientists who rely solely on 'thinking' and lack vision, of course, all present company excepted.

[LazyGun]

@ Khandro

"LG; I find it odd that you cannot understand the connection; animals and (some) humans can communicate in an extra-sensory manner, this is to me irrefutable, we may not know how"

This is what you said, in a previous post. Use of the term "extra-sensory" commonly refers to senses outside our accepted sensorium, as you are well aware. You were not referring to the less familiarly known proprioception or nociception, because these are reasonably well documented and accepted. So I call *** on your last lame excuse.

Anyone who reads your threads will know that, given a choice between some mystical or woo based explanation for a phenomenon, or the far more rational and scientific explanation, you will opt for and defend the former.

You seem to regard the fact that an animal might display a body clock as something exceptional - why? Regular events at regular intervals. Now, if your dog was tapping out the time with their paw, that might be a story.

Looks like on your measure of intellect, there is your dog, then me, and, lagging some distance behind - theres you.