The Point Of Everlasting Life

[beso]

The Believers frequently propose that mortal life has no point without the everlasting life that follows for the faithful.

Yet that promise is to a place where there seems nothing to do but worship God for an eternity. How does this offer them more of a "point"?

Some tell us that we won't need our bodies in this new paradise. So no eating, drinking, singing, sex or other physical exercise. We won't talk because we will already know each other's thoughts. So no card games, crosswords or jokes.

And you get an eternity of this as "reward" for giving up the focus of one's whole natural life when you could actually do something?!

Have I missed something?

[WaldoMcFroog]

And what about freewill in this 'paradise'? It raises all sorts of issues about what this supposed existence might be like.

[douglas9401]

If everybody started from the point where these fantasies were concocted it would be easy to see eternity doing nothing was something to look forward to for a person who toiled from dawn to sunset for next to nothing.
It's "jam tomorrow" for the proles to keep them producing for their betters.

[rojash]

"Yet that promise is to a place where there seems nothing to do but worship God for an eternity."

You're not the first to mention this, as a consequence of which, I believe, they now have bingo on Friday nights in paradise, and bowling every fourth Tuesday.

[beso]

Yeah but bingo fell out of favour when some mysterious soul that nobody had ever seen before turned up every time and took the best prizes. Rumor was that it was God who of course could take the form of anyone He wished but it would be hard to prove.

[AB Editor]

Morning. Could you back up your assertions with a quote or two please? Who says this? What position do they hold? Or have you just extrapolated these ideas from something else?

[beso]

I didn't assert anything.

However any variety of positions on the concept of a god are available. Choose the one that fits best.

It is the very nature of religion to accumulate multiple positions because ultimately it is a political strategy and politics never lacks wannabes.

[naomi24]

//Yet that promise is to a place where there seems nothing to do but worship God for an eternity. How does this offer them more of a "point"?//

It seems they think the point of living is to die, when depending upon the particular flavour of religion they adhere to they will either spend eternity in heaven, or in an eternal paradise on earth - in either case with people they may not have liked much in life - and imagine - no way out! It holds no attraction for me. Eternity is a long time.

[AB Editor]

So you're unwilling to provide any evidence for your assertions?

I don't recognise the version of "paradise" you've posted from any discussions I've had with the religious - I want to know where you're getting those ideas from.

[AB Editor]

Who are "they" Naomi?

(I hope the answer isn't "all of them" :) )

[woofgang]

go Ed!!!
I am all for Valhalla myself....and a viking funeral, although I quite like Kipling's idea.
"When Earth's Last Picture is Painted"
by Rudyard Kipling

When earth's last picture is painted,
and the tubes are twisted and dried,
When the oldest colors have faded,
and the youngest critic has died,
We shall rest. And Faith, we shall need it;
to lie down for an aeon or two,
Till the master of all good workmen shall set us to work anew!

And those that were good will be happy;
they shall sit in a golden chair.
They shall splash at a ten league canvas
with brushes of comets' hair.
They shall find real saints to draw from;
Magdalene, Peter, and Paul.
They shall work for an age at a sitting and never be tired at all!

And only the Master shall praise us,
and only the Master shall blame;
And no one shall work for money;
and no one shall work for fame;
But each for the joy of the working,
and each, on his separate star,
Shall draw the things as he sees them
for the God of things as they are!

[naomi24]

Ed, no, 'they' doesn't include 'all of them', but refers solely (or souly?) to those who adhere to a belief in an eternal life in some sort of paradise, as mentioned in the question. Since Buddhists, for example, don't adhere to such a a belief, 'they', obviously, does not include them.

[AB Editor]

Okay, but "they" (as defined by you above) all believe the above? They all believe the body does not go to heaven, and that Beso's assertions to be, roughly, true?

I just don't know who Beso is talking about I suppose. I Would still appreciate some evidence which suggests the foundations of what Beso has extrapolated from is "true".

[Scylax]

Ah, Woof, I'm a huge fan of Kipling. He was so prolific that he can be quoted to support almost anything. He was everyman's poet. If there was reincarnation,guess who I'd choose to be ? Omar Khayyam is worth quoting too:
'Strange is it not, that of the myriads who
Before us passed the Gate of Darkness through,
Not one returns to tell us of the road,
Which to discover we must travel too'.

It seems smewhat futile to speculate on the nature of heaven. It doesn't exist.

[ludwig]

// Okay, but "they" (as defined by you above) all believe the above? //

He didn't claim they all believe the above. He said 'The Believers frequently propose'.

If I were to assert that people who refuse to attend church frequently propose that there's no god, would you want some quotes to support that assertion as well?

[AB Editor]

"If I were to assert that people who refuse to attend church frequently propose that there's no god, would you want some quotes to support that assertion as well?"

No, because that seems reasonable to me and you haven't extrapolated it to some extremes...

I agree "all" is a problem in my previous statement. My apologies.

It just seemed a bit far-fetched for there to be someone defining "paradise" out there (- besides Monty Python), I wanted to know who it was. In my experience (of talking to believers) it's often a kind of unknown concept of endless joy and love etc - not necessarily one of servitude:

"Yet that promise is to a place where there seems nothing to do but worship God for an eternity"

And that there will be no semblance of physical, spacial existence:

"Some tell us that we won't need our bodies in this new paradise"

I'm just questioning where this came from, and no one has answered yet :)

[Snafu03]

you are approaching this from the point of view 'what would everlasting life be like from a Human point of view'.

you are not to be human in the afterlife and driven by the same factors that make a physical life a wellbeing one.

what is important now wont be important then - maybe nothing will be important, maybe you'll be have a feeling of wellbeing that you'll never tire of. Boredom is a very human emotion, well not even human - even animals get bored. Its very 'Earthlike' would be a better description.

Shake off your shackles of humanity for a moment and try to think the question through from a celestial point of view. We are more than just the sum of our body parts.

[IggyB]

Ed I'm confused, are you saying that discussion of the afterlife needs to be supported by evidence? Because I think that's going to be a bit hard to come by. ;)

[naomi24]

Ed, perhaps this is where the concept of eternal servitude came from, so it might answer your question.

Revelation 22:3. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.

[AB Editor]

Okay, that's pretty good Naomi. Ta. What's good about that is that bit, in isolation, is that it sounds like God was previously on a throne, had become absent, and was replaced by a messiah.

"Ed I'm confused, are you saying that discussion of the afterlife needs to be supported by evidence?"

No, I'm saying that if you're going to tell me someone said something, or speak for a whole group of people, that you need to quote me what they said or provide some sort of evidence that they said it for me to give you credibility.

[AB Editor]

Naomi, do you think that features in the modern Christian version of Paradise prominently? Servitude to god that is - I understand the concept of service is heavily preached, as in serving the community for example, but not in the sense of slavery which is inferred (I reckon) in the quote you offer.