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Is East Belfast Violence Justified ?
I can't find a post on this problem so I would like to hear your views on the violence by loyalists in NI. Where does the fault lie. ?
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There was a question and brief discussion about the Union flag issue that is at the root of this at:
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Just to recap in case anyone doesn't know, the Union flag used to fly 365 days a year on the majestic City Hall. but there was a bid by Nationalists on Belfast City Council to ban it completely. The Alliance Party enginered a compromise motion which would see the flag flown on special occasions only (actually, and somewhat ironically, bringing Belfast in line with the rest of the UK). This motion was passed. Since then loyalists have been protesting in various places, mainly Belfast.
Of course the violence is completely unjustified. There have also been attacks on the homes and cars of Alliance Party, Unionist and Nationalist politicians alike. It's likely some of these have been by Republicans.
When you get violence like this in Loyalist areas you can be 99% certain it's being orchestrated by paramilitaries, exploiting the grievances of gullible people for their own ends.
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Just to recap in case anyone doesn't know, the Union flag used to fly 365 days a year on the majestic City Hall. but there was a bid by Nationalists on Belfast City Council to ban it completely. The Alliance Party enginered a compromise motion which would see the flag flown on special occasions only (actually, and somewhat ironically, bringing Belfast in line with the rest of the UK). This motion was passed. Since then loyalists have been protesting in various places, mainly Belfast.
Of course the violence is completely unjustified. There have also been attacks on the homes and cars of Alliance Party, Unionist and Nationalist politicians alike. It's likely some of these have been by Republicans.
When you get violence like this in Loyalist areas you can be 99% certain it's being orchestrated by paramilitaries, exploiting the grievances of gullible people for their own ends.
There is on-going violence from the rump of the republicans. The bomb under the car of a police officer in East Belfast was almost certainly their work. But I doubt they'd be any way involved in the flag violence.
East Belfast, where most of the violence is happening, is in the constituency held for years by Peter Robinson of the DUP. After revelations about his personal life and his closeness to big business, he lost the seat at the last general election to Naomi Long, a member of the Alliance Party.
As Ichkeria has already stated, the Alliance members on Belfast City Council, who hold the balance of power there, worked out a compromise which would see the flag flying on the same days it did in the rest of the UK.
The DUP saw this issue as a way to regain the East Belfast seat by blaming the Alliance Party for the flag's removal. They organised demonstrations at Alliance party headquarters. But, as we've seen, it's easier to get the mob onto the streets than it is to disperse them.
The Loyalist paramilitary group, the UVF, are involved because it suits them very well. They can tighten their grip on the community.
The fault lies equally with the DUP and the UVF who both sense profit from this violence.
East Belfast, where most of the violence is happening, is in the constituency held for years by Peter Robinson of the DUP. After revelations about his personal life and his closeness to big business, he lost the seat at the last general election to Naomi Long, a member of the Alliance Party.
As Ichkeria has already stated, the Alliance members on Belfast City Council, who hold the balance of power there, worked out a compromise which would see the flag flying on the same days it did in the rest of the UK.
The DUP saw this issue as a way to regain the East Belfast seat by blaming the Alliance Party for the flag's removal. They organised demonstrations at Alliance party headquarters. But, as we've seen, it's easier to get the mob onto the streets than it is to disperse them.
The Loyalist paramilitary group, the UVF, are involved because it suits them very well. They can tighten their grip on the community.
The fault lies equally with the DUP and the UVF who both sense profit from this violence.
Flags and emblems have a completely different meaning and context in N.Ireland than they do in the reat of the UK.
The anger, violence and cause (of the violence) are unfathomable to the rest of us, but that does not mean it d be condemned instantly.
The total ban on the flying of the Union Flag was a provocation and the loyalists have sadly, predictably risen to it.
Taking their protest through a nationalist flashpoint was also not too bright?
Just goes yo show that even a generation after the good friday accord, we should not take peace in N.Ireland for granted. There arw still stupid ors on both sides who want to regress to the bad old days.
The anger, violence and cause (of the violence) are unfathomable to the rest of us, but that does not mean it d be condemned instantly.
The total ban on the flying of the Union Flag was a provocation and the loyalists have sadly, predictably risen to it.
Taking their protest through a nationalist flashpoint was also not too bright?
Just goes yo show that even a generation after the good friday accord, we should not take peace in N.Ireland for granted. There arw still stupid ors on both sides who want to regress to the bad old days.
Being from Belfast myself but very much on the other side both geographically and politically I really can't add a lot more to the answers already given other than to say that we really don't need to do your violence for you, you're quite good enough at that by yourselves and like Sandy I doubt that Republicans had anything whatsoever to do with any flag related violence per se.
In Belfast we are all equally guilty of jumping on opportunities to make the opposition look bad- both the real opposition and those on the same side as us but of a different faction.
Certainly it's all better than it was at it's height, but will we ever eradicate violence in the north? I'm not sure because there is a certain percentage of people on both 'sides' that for their own reasons want violence, and those reasons are seldom purely political, more often than not they are financial and power orientated. What I am backhandedly pleased about is that finally some of the violence orchestrated by loyalists is making it's way into mainland consciousness and hopefully this, coupled with the result of the Pat Finucane inquiry will lead to a more balanced view by the English people of what is exactly going on there.
In Belfast we are all equally guilty of jumping on opportunities to make the opposition look bad- both the real opposition and those on the same side as us but of a different faction.
Certainly it's all better than it was at it's height, but will we ever eradicate violence in the north? I'm not sure because there is a certain percentage of people on both 'sides' that for their own reasons want violence, and those reasons are seldom purely political, more often than not they are financial and power orientated. What I am backhandedly pleased about is that finally some of the violence orchestrated by loyalists is making it's way into mainland consciousness and hopefully this, coupled with the result of the Pat Finucane inquiry will lead to a more balanced view by the English people of what is exactly going on there.
Which reminds me, Ab Editor, take that flag off the logo right now or I will come round and smash your house up and burn your neighbours cars and shoot at the police who try to stop me. Woo hoo.
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It isn't flown 365 days a year on any council building in Britain afaik so
as a matter of fact as I stated earlier ironically Belfast City Council is now more in line with the rest of the UK. Where N Ireland differs drastically from elsewhere tho is that the symbols matter a lot more. It matters to a lot of Nationalists that having the flag flown constantly appears to mark the building and therefore the City as being 'Unionist' while on the other hand to unionists having it removed seems like yet another step as some serotonin in the erosion of their 'cultural identity'
Just to be clear about the 'Republican' violence I mentioned earlier I was referring to the attacks on politicians. A few of these likely were from that source although I agree that they are normally busier putting bombs under police men's cars.
The violence at the protests is entirely loyalist and is in fact accurately portrayed as such in the media as it always is, in my experience
as a matter of fact as I stated earlier ironically Belfast City Council is now more in line with the rest of the UK. Where N Ireland differs drastically from elsewhere tho is that the symbols matter a lot more. It matters to a lot of Nationalists that having the flag flown constantly appears to mark the building and therefore the City as being 'Unionist' while on the other hand to unionists having it removed seems like yet another step as some serotonin in the erosion of their 'cultural identity'
Just to be clear about the 'Republican' violence I mentioned earlier I was referring to the attacks on politicians. A few of these likely were from that source although I agree that they are normally busier putting bombs under police men's cars.
The violence at the protests is entirely loyalist and is in fact accurately portrayed as such in the media as it always is, in my experience
Thanks rojash, smart, witty, insightful and as rude as ever.
Some of the previous answers have got NOTHING to do with my question, which is aimed at the councillors of Belfast City Council(or any other UK council) in that if you're flying the national flag, do it 100% 24/7 or don't bother at all.
Having served 3 tours there with HM Forces I consider myself to have some understanding of the situation but I daresay you've got more and will tell us in your perpetual smug and forthright style.
Some of the previous answers have got NOTHING to do with my question, which is aimed at the councillors of Belfast City Council(or any other UK council) in that if you're flying the national flag, do it 100% 24/7 or don't bother at all.
Having served 3 tours there with HM Forces I consider myself to have some understanding of the situation but I daresay you've got more and will tell us in your perpetual smug and forthright style.
ChillDoubt my comment at 10.28 will explain why the flying of the flag 365 days a year is an issue on N Ireland different from anywhere else. Any council in the UK, Belfast included, is free to fly the Union Flag as often as it likes. Belfasts's council has decided that it doesn't want to. It does make its special occasion when it IS flown however. And in fact I believe Jan 9 will be the next 'Special Occasion'.
I understand that ichkeria, my issue (as it would be with any council) is why the National Flag needs to be flown on 'special' days only?
The flag of your country should be flown 365 days a year or not at all, surely?
Where I holiday in France has the Pompiers Station nearby. The French tricolour is flown there 365 days a year.
Who determines what constitutes a 'flag day' and what isn't? Limiting a national flag is a bit jingoistic isn't it, if it were flown for VE Day, VJ Day, Trafalgar etc? Won't it anatagonise matters further when it's unfurled on 'The Glorious Twelfth' etc?
Like I said, 365 days a year or not at all.
The flag of your country should be flown 365 days a year or not at all, surely?
Where I holiday in France has the Pompiers Station nearby. The French tricolour is flown there 365 days a year.
Who determines what constitutes a 'flag day' and what isn't? Limiting a national flag is a bit jingoistic isn't it, if it were flown for VE Day, VJ Day, Trafalgar etc? Won't it anatagonise matters further when it's unfurled on 'The Glorious Twelfth' etc?
Like I said, 365 days a year or not at all.
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