So Called Intelligent Design ... Actually Kind Of Dumb Isnt It?

[joko]

people claim that gods way is 'intelligent' design ... on the basis that we are just too well made to have happened naturally - and that god only cares about us and thats why animals dont have souls etc

but if that was the case, and god only cared about humans and made the world for our benefit, then why is there are a whole load of utterly pointless and dangerous creatures in it?
if the sole purpose of earth is to home humans - why is so much of it inhospitable, dangerous and just horrible?

he cannot blame us for all this - blame our freewill - which is the excuse he usually uses for anything bad that happens - because we did not create bacteria, volcanoes, termites, swamps etc etc

now i know with the worlds ecosystems in place all these things are necessary - but why have eco systems at all?
why make it so we need insects and bacteria etc?
why isnt the planet just covered in stuff that doesnt need any sort of ecosystem - surely the really intelligent thing would have been to make everything self contained? and nice. and clean. etc
why arent the only living species on the planet, humans and human food - ie cows, pigs etc ... and maybe a few that are just nice, like cats and dogs etc?
why create all the stuff we never need or even see and can kill us?

so whats so intelligent about it?

if you worked in a company and were tasked with creating a species and habitat for them - you would be sacked in utter disgrace if you created somewhere that looks nice for them ... and then added a load of pointless stuff, wasted spaces and dangerous stuff ...wouldnt you?

no-one would be calling you 'intelligent'

we dont design our houses to be full of dangerous and inhospitable areas do we? and we do our best to keep anything dangerous out... we aim to make it as nice and comfortable as possible....so why hasnt god done the same?

the world is full of amazing, wonderful and interesting things, but surely thats not the only reason for their existence? - just for us to look at pictures of them in books and go 'ooh, cool!' - because most humans will never ever see most of it for real.

so, creationists, can you tell me why he did it this way?

[naomi24]

Joko, excellent question. A similar one arises when the proposal that the stars were made in order that we here on earth may tell the seasons, etc, is promulgated. What was the point in making the billions we can't see with the naked eye?

[Old_Geezer]

To encourage you to reach out for them ?

[joko]

OG, no, you are missing my point - you seem to be focussing on what is already here and how much we dont know about it ... and therefore how can we say whats pointless or not - totally agree - we dont know, and i am totally sure everything has its place in the world - but not all of it is for our benefit - in fact a great deal of it is deadly to us.

thats because the planet was not made in 7 days for our benefit, by god - its because nature created the earth, and as far as it is concerned, we are just one of its inhabitants and are no more important to it than any other life form on it.

creationists claim that we are gods special creation and the earth created just to give us somewhere to live.
and if thats true - why is so much of this planet inhospitable and dangerous to us? why is so much of it off limits to us? why is so much of it of no benefit to us.
what use are termites? they destroy things. Amd to counter the argument that they eat other insects which helps us, well why make the other insect then? why bother?

so the point it is - why make any of that stuff have a point at all?
why make us need it?
why make it so that an plant that grows in the rainforest can cure us of a disease?
and why make things that can hurt or kill us - if we are gods precious creation?

why not just make us not need any of that stuff?

not only am i saying why make the plant grow in such an inhospitable place - but why make us need the plant in the first place.

if our creation is so intelligent, and all for the benefit of humans, why do that?

[naomi24]

OG, I've always done that. ;o)

[joko]

so og youre saying its all to give us something to look at? to dream about?

that was gods motive for making swamps, and mud, and slugs, and rocks etc?

for us to look at...?

[Old_Geezer]

You agree that you can not say what is pointless or not and then next post indicate you think swamps, mud, slugs, and rocks are no use to us. I can not know Gaia in all her activities, past & present, but I suspect without all of the above the world would not be the place it is, and quite possibly unsuitable for 'higher life forms'. But I'm sure we can enjoy looking at them as well, not to mention studying them to learn more and progress intellectually.

[joggerjayne]

Perhaps the fact that the Divine Creator muffed this world up so badly suggests that this was his practice attempt.

Having made a total arse of creating The World, he then went on to do it better in other parts of the universe.

Maybe this supports the idea of other life in the Universe which is both intelligent, and which doesn't have to live on a planet that is largely unsuitable.

ps. God scored particularly low marks on ...

Section 5: Design Africa (20 marks)

"Okay, let's think ... no food, no water, lots of people ... FINIIISHED!"

[Old_Geezer]

Simple example, things need to recycle, termites are part of that process.

[Old_Geezer]

Ah but were there lots of people in Africa at the beginning, or did they expand beyond the available local resources for themselves ?

[joggerjayne]

//or did they expand beyond the available local resources//

Well, that may have been a result of God's last minute addition while he was waiting for all the other gods to finish their question papers ...

"Ooh, I know ... I will give all the people in Africe no understanding of birth control"

"And if any of them DO start to understand about birth control, I will make them Catholic so that they are not allowed to use it."

(puts pen down and closes exam paper)

[Old_Geezer]

:-)
I think he leaves them to their own devices. Probably does a lot of head shaking.

[chrisgel]

Goodlife >>>>>>>> Which Atheist? Citation needed otherwise I can just say "Pope says there is no God after all"

[joko]

and i say again OG - of course we need them now! because thats how the earth works!


i am talking about if the earth was made by god solely for OUR BENEFIT !
why make them need to recycle in the first place?
why make our suitability for OUR planet dependant on these things?


youre still not grasping it. you need to look at the bigger picture i am trying to get at - forget how the earth is now!

think how it would be if a man sat in heaven with a pen an paper and set about making the earth to home his creation.

if you were making the most suitable home you could for your hamster - you would not fill it with quick sand and add a snake - would you?

if you were making the most suitable home you could for your ant farm you would not fill it with ketchup and add an anteater - would you?

if you were making the most suitable home you could for your budgie, you would not put it in a tank of water, would you?

if you were making the most suitable home you could for your ghecko, you would not build it over a fire pit, would you?


I can not explain any further than i have.
I really cannot understand how you cant get your head round this.

[goodlife]

chrisgel@ you could, but is was British philosopher Antony Flew.

[naomi24]

Goodlife, if you knew anything about Anthony Flew you would know he never believed in the God you believe in, so his change of heart can in no way be considered a feather in your cap.

[chrisgel]

Goodlife >>>> Is that it! Your argument from authority. The son of a methodist minister who at the age of 15 decided that he didn't believe in the Christian god.
Interviewed at the age of 81 " Flew also denied that there was any truth to the rumours of 2001 and 2003 that he had converted to Christianity."
So whatever his beliefs he didn't believe in your god did he.
Anyone can play your game Goodlife just plucked this off the internet.
John W. Loftus former preacher now an atheist.
I believe there are far more theist turned atheist than the other way round so I really wouldn't recommend that line of propaganda

[mibn2cweus]

Given the significant number of those who believe in ID, it's limited . . . at best!

[mikey4444]

Its been quite a few years now since we first started to understand how genes work. But its the "killer" argument when discussing how rational people view the world, as apposed to how religions tell us it all began.

So "intelligent Design" was invented in order to refute the universally accepted scientific view. They had to move the goal posts because their position had become completely untenable.

Its just another invention on top of all the previous ones.

[Khandro]

The question should not be about individual life forms (such as humans) but the existence of the universe itself being there to support that life, Roger Penrose, the Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, states that the likelihood of the universe having usable energy (low entropy) at the creation is astounding, namely, an accuracy of one part out of ten to the power of ten to the power of 123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full, in our ordinary denary (power of ten) notation: it would be one followed by ten to the power of 123 successive zeros! (That is a million billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion zeros.)

[LazyGun]

That's only remarkable if you are viewing the universe and its creation through the lens of the anthropic principle, Khandro.

And regardless of how unlikely a particular event or condition is, the idea of a creator entity is even more unlikely - and even greater order of magnitude of improbability.

It is not so much that the universe fits us perfectly - more that we, having developed within the universe, have evolved to be a perfect fit for the niche that the universe allows for.